Ουκρανία

[Φανερός Πράκτωρ]

Χαίρομαι πάντως που καταλήγουμε στο λίγο πολύ γνωστό, που δεν τολμάνε πολλοί να πούν. Ότι ο πόλεμος είναι ρωσίας αμερικής. Δεν θα τολμήσουν λέει οι σλοβάκοι, όχι επειδή δεν μπορεί να υπάρξει ένα αντίθετο επιχείρημα αλλά επειδή θα τους μαλώσει ο παππούς.

Ποιος ξέρει τι θα μάθουμε σε κάμποσα χρόνια, το τι απειλές και προσταγές έπεσαν από US στα χάπατα της ευρώπης.

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Η ιστορία θυμίζει το ευρώπη εναντίον ελλάδας, πριν κάτι χρόνια. Όλοι οι ευρωπαίοι μαφιόζοι και τοκογλύφοι, να την πέσουν στην χώρα μην τυχόν και κάνουν κάτι διαφορετικό, από τις ακατανόητες μπούρδες που επέβαλαν.

Σωστά τα λες. Αλλά τελικά σε ποια ανατολική χώρα αποφάσισες να ζήσεις;
Έχω χάσει τα ίχνη σου και δεν ξέρω αν συμβαδίζουν με τον επαναστατικό σου λόγο

[stel67]

Χαίρομαι πάντως που καταλήγουμε στο λίγο πολύ γνωστό, που δεν τολμάνε πολλοί να πούν. Ότι ο πόλεμος είναι ρωσίας αμερικής. Δεν θα τολμήσουν λέει οι σλοβάκοι, όχι επειδή δεν μπορεί να υπάρξει ένα αντίθετο επιχείρημα αλλά επειδή θα τους μαλώσει ο παππούς.

Ποιος ξέρει τι θα μάθουμε σε κάμποσα χρόνια, το τι απειλές και προσταγές έπεσαν από US στα χάπατα της ευρώπης.

- - - Updated - - -

Η ιστορία θυμίζει το ευρώπη εναντίον ελλάδας, πριν κάτι χρόνια. Όλοι οι ευρωπαίοι μαφιόζοι και τοκογλύφοι, να την πέσουν στην χώρα μην τυχόν και κάνουν κάτι διαφορετικό, από τις ακατανόητες μπούρδες που επέβαλαν.

Που να το χωρέσει το μυαλό σου Zus!
Η Ρωσία, η Μεγάλη Ρωσία του τρισμέγιστου Πούτιν, της αρχιαρκούδας Πούτιν, της πυρηνικής υπερ-υπερδύναμης να έχει κρυφτεί πίσω από ναρκοπέδια, τρέμοντας την αντεπίθεση των Ουκρανών. Του αδελφικού σλαβικού λαού των Ουκρανών.
Φαντασιώσου λοιπόν Zus, ότι οι ΗΠΑ πολεμά στην Ουκρανία. Μόνο έτσι φαίνεται μπορεί να το χωρέσει το μυαλό σου. Ρίξε και λίγο αντιμνημόνιο να στανιάρουμε.

[Hetfield]

Χαίρομαι πάντως που καταλήγουμε στο λίγο πολύ γνωστό, που δεν τολμάνε πολλοί να πούν. Ότι ο πόλεμος είναι ρωσίας αμερικής. Δεν θα τολμήσουν λέει οι σλοβάκοι, όχι επειδή δεν μπορεί να υπάρξει ένα αντίθετο επιχείρημα αλλά επειδή θα τους μαλώσει ο παππούς.

Ποιος ξέρει τι θα μάθουμε σε κάμποσα χρόνια, το τι απειλές και προσταγές έπεσαν από US στα χάπατα της ευρώπης.

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Η ιστορία θυμίζει το ευρώπη εναντίον ελλάδας, πριν κάτι χρόνια. Όλοι οι ευρωπαίοι μαφιόζοι και τοκογλύφοι, να την πέσουν στην χώρα μην τυχόν και κάνουν κάτι διαφορετικό, από τις ακατανόητες μπούρδες που επέβαλαν.

Πληρωσε τα τροφιμα σου με market pass κι ασε τα χαπατα τους Σλοβακους να ξερουν τα συμφεροντα τους καλυτερα απο σενα.

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Από την άλλη έχει τους πολίτες του να ακούσει.
Μπορεί απλά να γίνει ουδετερος.

Δυσκολο να εισαι ουδετερος οταν συνορευεις με την Ουκρανια.
Δες ομως και με τι ποσοστα βγηκε ο Φικο, η δημοφιλια του πηγαζει κυριως απο μικρες πολεις και χωρια.

[Mosfet]

. Φαντασιώσου λοιπόν Zus, ότι οι ΗΠΑ πολεμά στην Ουκρανία. Μόνο έτσι φαίνεται μπορεί να το χωρέσει το μυαλό σου. Ρίξε και λίγο αντιμνημόνιο να στανιάρουμε.

Αν σταματήσουν οι ΗΠΑ να παρέχουν όπλα, εκπαίδευση, πληροφορίες, να δεις για πότε θα καταρρεύσει το μέτωπο. Και έλα τότε να μας πεις, ότι δεν ήταν proxy war.

[aroutis]

Οποιος υποστηριζει οτι δεν ειναι proxy war σε αυτο το σημείο. μάλλον στρουθοκαμηλίζει.

[lewton]

Ο πόλεμος έχει έντονα χαρακτηριστικά proxy war, αλλά αν είναι να καταλήξετε ότι οι Αμερικάνοι φταίνε, sorry απλά αναπαράγετε τα επιχειρήματα του Putin.

Αφού πρώτα δεχθούμε ότι στην Ουκρανία έγινε μια παράνομη, αναίτια επίθεση από έναν τρελό που βάζει την προσωπική υστεροφημία του πάνω από το καλό του λαού του, τότε ΟΚ, να δεχθούμε και ότι η βοήθεια που στέλνεται από τον δημοκρατικό κόσμο στον αμυνόμενο ουκρανικό λαό είναι proxy war.

Ή για να το πω πιο απλά, υπάρχει επιθετικός και αμυντικός πόλεμος. Αν εδώ έχουμε proxy πόλεμο, είναι "proxy" αμυντικός πόλεμος.

[lewton]

τρομερος ηρωας που εκατσε στο κιεβο
Συνημμένο Αρχείο 251114

oh wait

Υπονοείς ότι το είχε σκάσει σε καμια Γερμανία-Σουηδία ξέρω γω και από εκεί διοικούσε;

[aroutis]

Αυτό δεν έχει γίνει ακόμα ασχέτως αν όλοι ξέρουμε πως θα γίνει κάποια στιγμή γιατί ιστορικά αυτό κάνουν πάντα όταν δεν εξυπηρετούν πλέον τα συμφέροντά τους, που εντελώς τυχαία πάντα έτσι γίνεται παγκόσμια.

Υπό μια έννοια ήδη έχει γίνει. Όταν θα τελειώσει ο πόλεμος , η Ρωσία θα παρει εδάφη που πριν ανήκαν στη Ουκρανια (ποιος έχει αμφιβολια) θα μπορεί να σταθεί ο Ζελενσκι δεδομένων των καταστροφών που θα έχει υποστεί η Ουκρανία σε ανθρώπινο υλικό και οχι μόνο;

[dante80]

Μετά τα αποτελέσματα σε Σλοβακία και τα προβλήματα που φέρνει η ψήφιση του νομοσχεδίου για την παροδική εξυπηρέτηση του χρέους στις ΗΠΑ, Ευρωπαίοι Επίτροποι και Υπουργοί Εξ συγκλίνουν στο Κίεβο για συνάντηση με σκοπό - ανάμεσα σε άλλα - και την εμπέδωση κλίματος αλληλεγγύης και υποστήριξης προς την Ουκρανία. Σχετικό άρθρο από το reuters.

Kyiv brushes off US, Slovakia wobbles as EU ministers come to town
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-ministers-convene-ukraine-show-support-after-us-slovakia-wobbles-2023-10-02/

EU ministers meet in Kyiv to show support
Germany urges allies to help Ukraine prepare for winter
Russia says U.S. vote a sign of war 'fatigue'
Ukraine says it believes U.S. backing will continue

KYIV, Oct 2 (Reuters) - EU foreign ministers convened in Kyiv for their first ever meeting outside the bloc on Monday, broadcasting their support after a pro-Russian candidate won an election in Slovakia and the U.S. Congress left Ukraine war aid out of its spending bill.

Kyiv brushed off the wobbles on both sides of the Atlantic, especially the prospect that the U.S. Congressional vote, which excluded aid to Ukraine from an emergency bill to prevent a government shutdown, represented a deeper change in policy.

"We don't feel that the U.S support has been shattered... because the United States understands that what is at stake in Ukraine is much bigger than just Ukraine," Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba told reporters as he greeted the EU foreign policy chief Josep Borrell.

As for the election victory of pro-Russian Slovakian former Prime Minister Robert Fico, Kuleba said it was "too early to judge" the impact on politics there, noting that a new leader would still have to form a coalition.

Monday's meeting in Kyiv was touted by Borrell as an historic first but it comes at an awkward time for the Western alliance that has supported Kyiv.

The summer is ending after a slower-than-expected Ukrainian military counter-offensive, without the major success that Western leaders had hoped to see before autumn mud clogs the treads of their donated tanks.

"I am sure that Ukraine and the entire free world are capable of winning this confrontation. But our victory depends directly on our cooperation with you," Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelenskiy told the ministers, according to his website.

Borrell told a news briefing with Kuleba the EU remained united in its support for Ukraine and that he had proposed an EU spending package for Kyiv of up to 5 billion euros ($5.25 billion) for 2024 which he hoped to have agreed by then.

Kuleba said it would help both Ukraine and the EU to have more clarity on the judicial aspects of transferring Russian assets frozen in the West to help fund Ukraine's reconstruction efforts.

German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock called for efforts to prepare Ukraine for the coming winter, including through air defence and guaranteed energy supplies, after Russia bombed Ukraine's energy infrastructure last year.

"Last winter, we saw the brutal way in which the Russian president is waging this war," said Baerbock. "We must prevent this together with everything we have, as far as possible."

FATIGUE

Moscow touted the congressional vote in the United States as a sign of increasing division in the West, although the Kremlin said it expected Washington to continue its support for Kyiv.

The omission of aid for Ukraine was "a temporary phenomenon. America will continue its involvement in this conflict, in fact direct involvement," Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said.

"But we have repeatedly said before that according to our forecasts fatigue from this conflict, fatigue from the completely absurd sponsorship of the Kyiv regime, will grow in various countries, including the United States."

Elections are looming in several Western countries, above all next year in the United States where former President Donald Trump is leading the Republican field in his bid to return to the White House. Several high profile right-wing Trump supporters in Congress have called for a halt to Ukraine aid.

Republicans already control the House of Representatives, one of the two houses of the U.S. Congress. Although most Republican lawmakers still support Kyiv, the House speaker, Kevin McCarthy, was forced to rely on Democrats to pass the weekend measure to keep the government open, and might need to rely on them again to support any bill to fund Ukraine. Right wingers have threatened to try to remove him.

President Joe Biden's administration says it expects the House to pass a measure to keep aid to Ukraine flowing. Biden on Sunday pressed congressional Republicans to back the aid, saying he was "sick and tired" of the political brinkmanship that had nearly shut the government.

Kuleba said Ukraine had "a very in-depth discussion with both parts of the Congress - Republicans and Democrats", and expects aid to continue.

In Europe, pro-Russian former prime minister Fico won the most votes in an election in Slovakia on Sunday and will get a first chance to form a government. His campaign had called for "not a single round" of ammunition from Slovakia's reserves to be sent to Ukraine.

"We are not changing that we are prepared to help Ukraine in a humanitarian way," Fico said at a news conference after his victory. "We are prepared to help with the reconstruction of the state but you know our opinion on arming Ukraine."

Fico was given two weeks to form a government. To do so, he would have to establish a coalition with at least one other party that does not publicly share his position on Ukraine.

Russia's Peskov defended Fico, saying it was "absurd" that politicians who support their country's national interest were labelled "pro-Russian".

Slovakia, a NATO state with a small border with Ukraine, has taken in refugees and, under the outgoing government, has provided a disproportionately major supply of weapons, notably being among the first to send fighter jets.

[BlueChris]

Για να δούμε.....

Leaked U.S. strategy on Ukraine sees corruption as the real threat

Biden administration officials are far more worried about corruption in Ukraine than they publicly admit, a confidential U.S. strategy document obtained by POLITICO suggests.

The “sensitive but unclassified” version of the long-term U.S. plan lays out numerous steps Washington is taking to help Kyiv root out malfeasance and otherwise reform an array of Ukrainian sectors. It stresses that corruption could cause Western allies to abandon Ukraine’s fight against Russia’s invasion, and that Kyiv cannot put off the anti-graft effort.

“Perceptions of high-level corruption” the confidential version of the document warns, could “undermine the Ukrainian public’s and foreign leaders’ confidence in the war-time government.”

That’s starker than the analysis available in the little-noticed public version of the 22-page document, which the State Department appears to have posted on its website with no fanfare about a month ago.

The confidential version of the “Integrated Country Strategy” is about three times as long and contains many more details about U.S. objectives in Ukraine, from privatizing its banks to helping more schools teach English to encouraging its military to adopt NATO protocols. Many goals are designed to reduce the corruption that bedevils the country.

The quiet release of the strategy, and the fact that the toughest language was left in the confidential version, underscores the messaging challenge facing the Biden team.

The administration wants to press Ukraine to cut graft, not least because U.S. dollars are at stake. But being too loud about the issue could embolden opponents of U.S. aid to Ukraine, many of them Republican lawmakers who are trying to block such assistance. Any perception of weakened American support for Kyiv also could cause more European countries to think twice about their role.

When it comes to the Ukrainians, “there are some honest conversations happening behind the scenes,” a U.S. official familiar with Ukraine policy said. Like others, the person was granted anonymity to discuss a sensitive issue.

Ukrainian graft has long been a concern of U.S. officials all the way up to President Joe Biden. But the topic was deemphasized in the wake of Russia’s February 2022 full-scale invasion, which Biden has called a real-life battle of democracy against autocracy.

For months, Biden aides stuck to brief mentions of corruption. They wanted to show solidarity with Kyiv and avoid giving fuel to a small number of Republican lawmakers critical of U.S. military and economic aid for Ukraine.

William Taylor
William Taylor, a former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, said many ordinary Ukrainians will likely welcome the strategy because they, too, are tired of the endemic corruption in their country. | Andrew Harnik/AP Photo

More than a year into the full-scale war, U.S. officials are pressing the matter more in public and private. National security adviser Jake Sullivan, for instance, met in early September with a delegation from Ukrainian anti-corruption institutions.

A second U.S. official familiar with the discussions confirmed to POLITICO reports that the Biden administration is talking to Ukrainian leaders about potentially conditioning future economic aid on “reforms to tackle corruption and make Ukraine a more attractive place for private investment.”

Such conditions are not being considered for military aid, the official said.

A spokesperson for Ukraine’s foreign ministry did not respond to requests for comment. But Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has fired several top defense officials in a recent crackdown on alleged graft — a message to the United States and Europe that he’s listening.

The Integrated Country Strategy is a State Department product that draws on contributions from other parts of the U.S. government, including the Defense Department. It includes lists of goals, timelines for achieving them and milestones that U.S. officials would like to see hit. (The State Department produces such strategies for many countries once every few years.)

A State Department official, speaking on behalf of the department, would not say if Washington had shared the longer version of the strategy with the Ukrainian government or whether a classified version exists.

William Taylor, a former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine, said many ordinary Ukrainians will likely welcome the strategy because they, too, are tired of the endemic corruption in their country.

It’s all fine “as long as it doesn’t get in the way of the assistance we provide them to win the war,” he said.

Where GOP candidates stand on Ukraine

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The document says that fulfilling American objectives for Ukraine includes making good on U.S. promises of equipment and training to help Ukraine’s armed forces fend off the Kremlin’s attacks.

The confidential version also describes U.S. goals such as helping reform elements of Ukraine’s national security apparatus to allow for “decentralized, risk-tolerant approach to execution of tasks” and reduce “opportunities for corruption.”

Although the NATO military alliance is not close to allowing Ukraine to join, the American strategy often cites a desire to make Ukraine’s military adopt NATO standards.

One hoped-for milestone listed in the confidential version is that Ukraine’s Defense Ministry “establishes a professionalized junior officer and non-commissioned officer corps with NATO standard doctrine and principles.”

Even the format and content of Ukrainian defense documents should “reflect NATO terminology,” a confidential section of the strategy says.

One target includes creating a “national level resistance plan.” That could allude to ordinary Ukrainians fighting back if Russia gains more territory. (The State Department official would not clarify that point.)

The U.S. also wants to see Ukraine produce its own military equipment by establishing a “domestic defense industry capable of supporting core needs” as well as an environment that boosts defense information technology start-ups, according to one of the confidential sections.

U.S. officials appear especially concerned about the role of an elite few in Ukraine’s economy.

“Deoligarchization, particularly of the energy and mining sectors, is a core tenet to building back a better Ukraine,” the public part of the strategy declares. One indicator of success, the confidential version states, is that the Ukrainian government “embraces meaningful reforms decentralizing control of the energy sector.”

The United States appears eager to help Ukrainian institutions build their oversight capacities. The goals listed include everything from helping local governments assess corruption risks to reforms in human resources offices.

Ukrainian soldiers fire a cannon near Bakhmut, an eastern city where fierce battles against Russian forces have taken place.
One hoped-for U.S. goal is that Ukraine’s Defense Ministry “establishes a professionalized junior officer and non-commissioned officer corps with NATO standard doctrine and principles.” | Libkos/AP Photo

As one example, the strategy says the U.S. is helping the Accounting Chamber of Ukraine enhance its auditing and related work in part so it can track direct budget support from the United States.

The strategy describes ways in which the United States is helping Ukraine’s health sector, cyber defenses and organizations that battle disinformation. It calls for supporting Ukrainian anti-monopoly efforts and initiatives to spur increased tax revenue for the country’s coffers.

The confidential portion calls for Ukraine’s financial systems to “increase lending to encourage business expansion” and a reduction in the state’s role in the banking sector.

One envisioned milestone for that section is that “Alfa Bank is transparently returned to private ownership.” That appears to be a reference to an institution now known as Sense Bank, which was previously Russian-owned but nationalized by Ukraine.

The U.S. strategy appears intent on ensuring that Ukraine not only retains its orientation toward the West but that it develops special ties with America.

One way Washington believes that will happen is through the English language. The strategy indicates the United States is offering technical and other aid to Ukraine’s education ministry to improve the teaching of English and that it believes offering English lessons can help reintegrate Ukrainians freed from Russian occupation.

U.S. officials also are helping Ukraine build its capacity to prosecute war crimes in its own judicial system. The desired milestones include the selection of more than 2,000 new judges and clearing up a backlog of over 9,000 judicial misconduct complaints.

The strategy also calls for rebuilding the U.S. diplomatic presence in Ukraine, expanding beyond Kyiv to cities such as Lviv, Odesa, Kharkiv and Dnipro.

Due to earlier staff drawdowns spurred by the full-scale Russian invasion, “the embassy remains in crisis mode,” one of the public sections states. (The State Department official would not discuss the current Embassy staffing numbers.)

As they have in past communications reported on by POLITICO, U.S. officials note inventive ways in which the United States is providing oversight of American aid to Ukraine despite facing limitations due to the war. Those efforts have included using an app called SEALR to help track the aid

https://www.politico.com/news/2023/1...ption-00119237

[value_]

Kadyrov awarded his daughter the title of People's Artist of Chechnya


https://www.kavkazr.com/a/kadyrov-pr.../32621454.html

[konig]

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1709124249254805895

"We've only got one month before cold and winter settles in and we will have to pause the counteroffensive which is the sad news for us."

when the realization kicks in and you cant lie anymore

[BlueChris]

Θα κάνω μια περίεργη ερώτηση στο νήμα που δεν αφορά την Ουκρανία αλλά νιώθω πως υπάρχουν κοινοί παρανομαστες σε πολλά.

Είναι κακοί οι Παλαιστίνιοι που την έπεσαν στο Ισραήλ? (Όχι ότι θα καταφέρουν κάτι αλλά λέμε τώρα)

[lewton]

Θα κάνω μια περίεργη ερώτηση στο νήμα που δεν αφορά την Ουκρανία αλλά νιώθω πως υπάρχουν κοινοί παρανομαστες σε πολλά.

Είναι κακοί οι Παλαιστίνιοι που την έπεσαν στο Ισραήλ? (Όχι ότι θα καταφέρουν κάτι αλλά λέμε τώρα)

Οι Παλαιστίνιοι είναι οι Ουκρανοί και οι Ισραηλινοί οι Ρώσοι.

[minas]

Και η Ουκρανία υποστηρίζει το Ισραήλ. Έχουμε και στα Βαλκάνια αντίστοιχες ασυνέπειες.
Υπάρχουν δύο οπτικές: Αυτή της ηθικής και αυτή του (εκάστοτε) συμφέροντος. Η πρώτη είναι ελάχιστα πιο ευρεία, η δεύτερη αλλάζει ανάλογα με την πλευρά του καθενός.
Όταν σκοτώνεται κόσμος, κανείς δεν έχει δίκιο... το θέμα είναι ποιος έχει λιγότερο άδικο.