Επιστροφή χρημάτων για αχρησιμοποιήτα Vista home premium

[pelasgian]

Δεν μπορώ να σας πω τι πήρα, για λόγους που δεν μπορώ να σας εξηγήσω καν.
Πάντως υπάρχουν και αν είσαστε πονηρεμένοι θα τους καταλάβετε

[c4lex]

Φυσικά και έχει δικαίωμα να αγοράσει laptop χωρίς να είναι υποχρεωμένος να πληρώσει για λειτουργικό ή/και τυχόν λογισμικό που δεν θα χρησιμοποιήσει. Αν κάποια άδεια λέει το αντίθετο, ας το ποστάρει να δούμε κατά πόσο είναι παράνομη και καταχρηστική. (Δεν είναι κάθε συμβόλαιο νόμιμο και binding απλά επειδή "συμφωνήσανε" κάτι οι δυο πλευρές. Απ' όσο ξέρω, αυτό ισχύει και στην ελληνική νομοθεσία)

Προσωπικά δεν έχω δοκιμάσει κάτι τέτοιο, αλλά πολύ νόμιμη απαίτηση μου φαίνεται. Προχώρα γερά pelasgian και κράτα μας ενήμερους.

[Patentman]

Φυσικά και έχει δικαίωμα να αγοράσει laptop χωρίς να είναι υποχρεωμένος να πληρώσει για λειτουργικό ή/και τυχόν λογισμικό που δεν θα χρησιμοποιήσει.

Αυτο ισχυει (και πρεπει να ισχυει) για BTO συστηματα.
Οταν παιρνεις ενα ετοιμο τοτε αγοραζεις πακετο, μη τροποποιησιμο, οπως ακριβως δεν μπορεις να επιλεξεις τι οθονη θα εχει ή τι σκληρο ή οτι αλλο ετσι και δεν μπορεις να επιλεξεις να μην αγορασεις το λειτουργικο.
Αγοραζεις ενα πακετο "as is".

Εαν ισχυριστει καποιος οτι εχει λειτουργικο και δεν θελει να πληρωσει το λειτουργικο τοτε θα ηταν σαν να λεμε οτι αγοραζοντας ενα αυτοκινητο και εχοντας ηδη ζαντολαστιχα (ή οτι αλλο) να το επαιρνε χωρις αυτα.

Αυτο που λεει ο Pelasgian ειναι διαφορετικο και θελει ψαξιμο οσο αφορα τους ορους εγγυησης και ορους χρησης του κατασκευαστη οσο και το EULA για το λειτουργικο.

[c4lex]

Αυτο ισχυει (και πρεπει να ισχυει) για BTO συστηματα.
Οταν παιρνεις ενα ετοιμο τοτε αγοραζεις πακετο, μη τροποποιησιμο, οπως ακριβως δεν μπορεις να επιλεξεις τι οθονη θα εχει ή τι σκληρο ή οτι αλλο ετσι και δεν μπορεις να επιλεξεις να μην αγορασεις το λειτουργικο.
Αγοραζεις ενα πακετο "as is".

Εαν ισχυριστει καποιος οτι εχει λειτουργικο και δεν θελει να πληρωσει το λειτουργικο τοτε θα ηταν σαν να λεμε οτι αγοραζοντας ενα αυτοκινητο και εχοντας ηδη ζαντολαστιχα (ή οτι αλλο) να το επαιρνε χωρις αυτα.

Αυτο που λεει ο Pelasgian ειναι διαφορετικο και θελει ψαξιμο οσο αφορα τους ορους εγγυησης και ορους χρησης του κατασκευαστη οσο και το EULA για το λειτουργικο.

Ναι, αλλά ο pelasgian αγόρασε το πακέτο "as is" και αρνήθηκε τους όρους χρήσης του λογισμικού. Αυτόματα έχει πληρώσει για κάτι το οποίο δεν σκοπεύει να χρησιμοποιήσει. Σύμφωνα με το Eula της MS, δικαιούται επιστροφή χρημάτων (μάλιστα αν θυμάμαι καλά ρίχνει την ευθύνη στον αντίστοιχο προμηθευτή), αλλά ένα link ως προς το Eula του αντίστοιχου προϊόντος της MS θα το ξεκαθαρίσει.

Από κει και πέρα, αφού λοιπόν έχει αρνηθεί εξ' αρχής ότι θα χρησιμοποιήσει windows, για να σου μειώσουν νόμιμα τον χρόνο της εγγύησης του hardware, πρέπει να σου αποδείξουν με στοιχεία ότι τρέχοντας άλλο λειτουργικό επέρχεται κάποια φθορά στο υλικό με κάποιο τρόπο. Good luck στην αντίστοιχη κατασκευάστρια να αποδείξει με στοιχεία κάτι τέτοιο.

Αν τώρα η εταιρεία που προμήθευσε το laptop έχει και επιπλέον δική της άδεια, ας το ποστάρει να το περάσουμε από 40 κύματα..

[pelasgian]

http://download.microsoft.com/docume...9cf5105718.pdf

Σημείωση, υπάρχει η υπόθεση Antoine Gutzwiller v. Acer, στην οποία όχι μόνο αθροίσαν ένα ένα τα προγράμματα που περιείχε το μηχάνημα στη τιμή λιανικής (μεγαλύτερη από τη λιανική του ... μηχανήματος) αλλά του επιδίκασαν και 500 επιπλέον ευρώ επειδή έπεσε θύμα abusive resistance (sic!). Βασικά, τους ξεβράκωσε και έπεσε σε ... εύθυμο δικαστή ο οποίος προφανώς τσαντίστηκε από τη «πολιτική» τους να προσφέρουν 20 ευρώ για αφαίρεση προγράμματος (που έχει λιανική 150) και απαιτώντας αυτή να γίνει στο service της εταιρείας εντός του δεκαημέρου και με επιβάρυνση αποστολής του τελικού χρήστη, δηλαδή 30 ευρώ. Δηλαδή, να πληρώσει ο πελάτης 10 ευρώ και να μην έχει λαπτοπ για 10 ημέρες ώστε να του αφαιρέσουν πρόγραμμα που δεν ήθελε και δεν αποδέχτηκε.

Οπότε, τους πήρε το σκαλπ και καλά τους έκανε.

Σημείωση:
η microsoft ισχυρίζεται ότι η OEM άδειες δεν δικαιούνται επιστροφής (από τη Microsoft, άρα μόνο ο retailer ή manufacturer οφείλει):
http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/prod...nd/refund.mspx

Νομίζω όμως ότι αυτό δεν αντέχει σε νομική ανάλυση στην Ελλάδα.
Κάνας δικηγόρος που ψήνεται να το ψάξουμε;

Θα είχε πολύ πλάκα αν για κάθε ΟΕΜ που έχει πουληθεί ανοίξει ο δρόμος για επιστροφή από την microsoft hellas σε τιμές retail license

[c4lex]

(Δεν διάβασα το pdf, αλλά από το google το html καθώς το μηχάνημα στο οποίο βρίσκομαι δεν έχει pdf reader.) Παρόλα αυτά λέει ρητά:

By using the software, you accept these terms. If you do not accept them, do not use the
software. Instead, return it to the retailer for a refund or credit. If you cannot obtain a refund
there, contact Microsoft or the Microsoft affiliate serving your country for information about Microsoft’s
refund policies. See www.microsoft.com/worldwide. In the United States and Canada, call (800)
MICROSOFT or see www.microsoft.com/info/nareturns.htm.

Έχεις δικαίωμα επιστροφής αν δεν χρησιμοποίησες το software.-

Edit: @pelasgian, Ψήσου για τζάμπα laptop με χρηματοδότηση μονοπωλίου

........Auto merged post: c4lex πρόσθεσε 17 λεπτά και 38 δευτερόλεπτα αργότερα ........

...
Σημείωση:
η microsoft ισχυρίζεται ότι η OEM άδειες δεν δικαιούνται επιστροφής (από τη Microsoft, άρα μόνο ο retailer ή manufacturer οφείλει):
http://www.microsoft.com/mscorp/prod...nd/refund.mspx

Νομίζω όμως ότι αυτό δεν αντέχει σε νομική ανάλυση στην Ελλάδα.
Κάνας δικηγόρος που ψήνεται να το ψάξουμε;

Θα είχε πολύ πλάκα αν για κάθε ΟΕΜ που έχει πουληθεί ανοίξει ο δρόμος για επιστροφή από την microsoft hellas σε τιμές retail license

Με ΟΕΜ δηλαδή με κάποιο τρόπο σε ενημερώσανε για τους όρους χρήσης του λειτουργικού που θα χρησιμοποιήσεις ώστε να είσαι ενήμερος αν μπορείς/θέλεις να το δεχτείς? Όχι. Αντίστοιχη υπόθεση είχε χάσει η Gateway παλιότερα, που θεωρούσε ότι από τη στιγμή που άνοιγες το κουτί δεχόσουν την συμφωνία, αλλά οι όροι της συμφωνίας ήταν μέσα στο κουτί. (Ή κάπως έτσι.. επειδή την κάνω για έξω τώρα δεν έχω χρόνο να το ψάξω, αλλά θα επανέρθω. ). Αν διαβάσει δικηγόρος, ενδιαφέρουσα θα είναι και η άπψή του.

[pelasgian]

Απλά όταν πρωτοτρέξεις το μηχάνημα σου λέει ότι: «δέχεσαι τους όρους της MS; ναι; πάτα κλικ εκεί», «Δέχεσαι τους όρους της τάδε εταιρείας που φτιάχνει το μηχάνημα; ναι; πάκα κλικ εκεί», «δεν τους δέχεσαι; σβύσε τα πάντα και επικοινώνησε με τον retailer/manufacturer για τα refund policies του».

Όπως και έκανα. Τώρα περιμένουμε.

Σημείωση: είναι ΕΞΟΡΓΙΣΤΙΚΑ μλκς. Πρέπει να κάνεις εγκατάσταση από το image για να σε ρωτήσει αν αποδέχεσαι και δεν έχει κανένα tool για να τα αφαιρέσεις.

Φυσικά με ένα linux live CD του σκίζεις τα ράμματα και κόβεται σύντομα και δραστικά η λαμακία.

Ελπίζω σε μία λύση όπου θα τους στείλω πίσω το χαρτάκι της άδειας σε συστημένο και θα μου στείλουν τσεκ γύρω στα 100 ευρώ.

[c4lex]

Ωραίος. Δες και αυτό το thread από τα forums της Fedora να πάρεις ιδέες για το τι πάνω κάτω θα τους πεις αν αρνηθούνε επιστροφή χρημάτων. Για αυτούς που (σαν εμένα) βρίσκουν πολύ κουραστικό να διαβάσουν όλα τα posts, αυτά είναι τα email που άλλαξε ο τύπος με την Acer:

Spoiler:

Enquiry into MS Windows refund

Dear Sirs/Madam,

I have recently purchased an Acer Aspire 5100 Series notebook from Insight (UK) Ltd through my place of employment. This notebook was pre-installed with a copy of Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005 (Acer Incorporated) which is not required as I use and have installed the Gnu/Linux distribution Fedora Core 6 on said notebook.

As I understand it, if I do not require the copy of Windows that has been preinstalled on this notebook and I have not agreed to the Microsoft Windows End User License Agreement (EULA) then I am entitled to a full refund to the OEM copies of Windows Media Centre Edition.

Please send me details as to how I can obtain this refund.

With regards,

Scruffy

Spoiler:

Hello, Thank you for contacting Acer.

Regarding your enquiry,

The Acer OEM software installed on your machine is pre installed and activated in the factory. It is an integral part of the machine you have purchased and is bundled with the physical hardware of the computer. We are unfortunately not able to refund the operating system as it is not a separate item. It comes as part of the computer you have purchased.

Spoiler:

My response to Acer:

Thank you for your email.

Unfortunately, due to unfair licensing practices, Windows comes with most computers that are purchased and most people have to pay for Windows whether they like it or not, even if they are looking for a naked machine, ie one without an operating system installed. As you may well know that finding a naked notebook is difficult and can be expensive. Because of this several complaints have been put to the European Union asking them to investigate. This has been reported in the press (see http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/busin...8_msfteu01.html). This, as you may have heard, is referred to as the 'Microsoft Tax'.

Now, I chose this notebook because I liked the specs and the price was affordable to me. My intention was to put Linux on the computer and use open source software so I have no need for the pre-installed version of Windows. I have looked at your website and cannot find any notebooks with equivalent specs not being preloaded with Windows. Also, I could not find another notebook with equivalent specs that was available at the same price without an OS preloaded. In essence, I cannot find a notebook provided by you or by a competitor that offers the notebook naked (no OS) or for a similar price/spec.

Unfortunately, your email to me does not ring true. You clearly state that the OS is an integral part of the machine but I have managed to not only wipe the OS from the system, I have managed to install a competing OS on the computer and the machine is still working ok. Looking up the word 'Integral' in a dictionary returns the following results:
1. (adj) Essential or necessary for completeness; constituent
2.(adj) Possessing everything essential; entire
3.(n) A complete unit; a whole

As Windows is not the only OS in existence then number 1 doesn't apply, as it is not essential for you to use Windows to use this notebook. As Linux contains everything I need then number 2 does not apply, as Windows does not posses everything I need because if it did then I would have no need to look at Linux. I have demonstrated that Windows on this notebook does not make it a complete unit, otherwise removing it would mean the machine could not function.

If I was to accept that the OS is an integral part of the computer then maybe you can explain to me why I cannot use the OS to it's full functionality without the need to purchase further parts. You claim that this is part of a bundle but without the extra partsthen this bundle is severely lacking any function. The system is supposed to be a media centre notebook but to actually get the media centre part to work I will have to spend extra money on a remote control, TV card, cables etc. This therefore tells me that the OS is not integral to the system. If it is then there are items missing from my bundle that I would like you to forward to me at no extra cost.

With regards to your other point in the operating system is bundled with the computer I would disagree. There has been numerous occassions where the bundled operating system was not required and, after a long fight, the end user has successfully negotiated a return of funds for the unwanted system. You claim that the operating system is bundled with the computer but you do not offer a computer that is operating system free therefore you limit customers options. The same also applies to other notebook manufacturers in that they too bundle Windows with notebooks and do not offer alternative operating systems therefore they limit customers options. It also seems your comment can be interpreted in two ways:
No.1 is not true. If it was then there would be no reason for an EULA from Microsoft. Since you do not provide an EULA for me to examine before the computer purchase you are automatically expecting people to agree with Microsofts restrictions of use.
2. Because there is actually a lack of Windows media disc in the bundle, which would be needed if the hard drive failed, the Windows setup media is located on the hardware itself, therefore it cannot be physically removed from the machine.

No.1 is not true. If it was then there would be no reason for an EULA from Microsoft, or at least an option as to whether you accept it or not. If I choose no to the EULA where would that leave me? You do not provide the EULA for viewing when I purchase the product so I would be left with a dead system, or a dead Windows license that cost me money.
No.2 is also not true. If it is, please tell me how, without a Windows media disc, I reinstall Windows. Please, consider my installation of Linux just a weird assimilation of the hard disc failing, where I would physically need to reinstall Windows. Please tell me how I do it without a media disc? Please remember that without an OS on the hard drive I also have no internet connection so I cannot download any files. Not until Windows is put on, that is?

Finally, I would like to point out something that is in the EULA for Windows. This is extremely important because you are clearly stating that the operating system comes bundled with the computer. In the EULA for Windows it clearly states that when you purchase a copy of Windows you are not in fact purchasing Windows but purchasing a license TO USE Windows under certain restrictions/conditions. It is this license that I am rejecting and the EULA clearly states that if I do not agree to the EULA I am entitled to a refund. I have emailed Microsoft and asked them to send me a copy of the EULA so I can clarify that. Let me make this clear that by purchasing this computer I have also purchased this license for Windows, the license is unwanted and I want a refund for it as the EULA says. I know I am entitled to it, as has been proven recently by Dell refunding a Linux user for the unwanted Windows user that came 'bundled' with the notebook he purchased from Dell, where he was essentially forced to buy the notebook WITH Windows because no system was available WITHOUT Windows. I paid you for the license, as part of the cost of the computer, so I am asking you for a refund for part of the computer that should not be a part of it but an option.

Spoiler:

Hello, Thank you for contacting Acer.

Regarding your enquiry,

The Microsoft OEM end user license agreement states that refunds of the windows operating system are made in accordance with the manufacturer's return policies. The following is quoted from the EULA on a brand new Acer Aspire.

'If you do not agree to the terms of this EULA, you may not use or copy the
software, and you should promptly contact manufacturer for instructions on return of the unused product(s) for a refund in accordance with manufacturer's return policies.'

Acer's policy is not to provide a refund for the windows operating system. This is because it is preinstalled and activated, thereby classed as used and not able to be resold with another computer. As previously stated it is a part of the product you have purchased and not a separate item, you were invoiced for the entire computer upon purchase, not for a computer and an operating system.

The Acer OEM installation of windows can be reinstalled in two ways. The first time the machine is used you are requested to create a set of recovery cds. These can be used to restore the original installation, further sets can be made at any time with the eRecovery software. You can also use the hidden partition for restoring windows to the factory installation by tapping Alt + F10 on bootup of the machine.

Regards

Spoiler:

Thank you for your mail and your time once again. I do appreciate your comments on this issue.

I have noticed that you are part of the Acer Technical Support and although I appreciate your help on this issue I feel that this issue should be dealt with by Acer Customer Services. I originally got this email address from Acers UK website and that was the only email address available on the contacts page. Could you please forward me the address of your Customer Services department or at least get the Acer UK Customer Services department to contact me.

Again I thank you for your help on this issue.

Spoiler:

Thank you for contacting Acer. I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for contacting us.

In response to your query regarding refunds for software supplied with our machines I reiterate what Richard has advised you of previously. It is Acer's policy not to refund the cost of the operating system as it is activated during the manufacturing process and would therefore not be able to be re-used/sold to another end user.

This is in response to the statement in the end user licensing agreement "if you do not agree to the terms of this eula, you may not use or copy the software, and you should promptly contact manufacturer for instructions on return of the unused product(s) for a refund in accordance with manufacturer's return policies."

Some other manufacturers may have different policies regarding this issue due to the differences in their manufacturing process. For example machines made to order have not had their operating system activated as they are made recently and shipped within a few days. In contrary, Acer machine are manufactured to a specification one part of the specification details the software installed, including the Windows operating system and other Acer software etc.

You can contact Customer Services with any issues you may have on the address and fax number bellow as an alternative to replying to this Email,

Spoiler:

Dear Sir/Madam,

As this is a Technical Support email address I have requested a customer service representative to contact me via email. This seems to have been done but the customer service representative mysteriously had the same email address and also had the 'Technical Support' details under the company logo. This may have been just a standard signature for that address but I see no reason why the 'customer service representative' did not email from their own account unless the email was not from customer service. It also appears that the address supplied by the 'customer service' representative (Paul) is in fact the Technical Service and Repairs address. Please ensure that this message is passed onto the Customer Service department or Customer Service manager/director, unless of course Acer does not have a customer serivce department of any kind. To ensure this goes to the right department I will also be faxing and posting this mail to the West Drayton office.

Now, with regards to this refund I have serious problems with your emails:

According to previous emails from Technical Support (Richard) and 'Customer Service' (Paul) it is Acer's policy not to issue a refund for this OS because:

1. It is an integral part of the machine you have purchased and is bundled with the physical hardware of the computer.

2. Microsoft OEM end user license agreement states that refunds of the windows operating system are made in accordance with the manufacturer's return policies.

3. Acer's policy is not to provide a refund for the windows operating system. This is because it is preinstalled and activated, thereby classed as used and not able to be resold with another computer.

4. ... it is a part of the product you have purchased and not a separate item, you were invoiced for the entire computer upon purchase, not for a computer and an operating system.

5. It is Acer's policy not to refund the cost of the operating system as it is activated during the manufacturing process and would therefore not be able to be re-used/sold to another end user.

In my emails to Richard I dealt with the above and more. Briefly:

1. The operating system is not an integral part of the system, whereas the harddrive, RAM, motherboard, keyboard etc are. You cannot run a computer without the hardware but I have managed to run the computer without Windows, installing Linux Fedora Core 6 immediately upon powering up the system. Integral can also mean 'entire, or complete' and I have demonstrated that this is not true to the bundle sold. To use the OS to the full I will still need to purchase further items. Does that sound complete?

2. This I pointed out in the beginning. I have a choice to accept the Microsoft EULA and if I do not then, according to said EULA, I am entitled to a refund in accordance with the manufacturer's return policies. Well, having looked at your website I can see no mention of any return policies. I am still trawling through your manuals supplied with the machine but have had no luck there. So, according to the EULA I am entitled to a refund in accordance with return policies that appear not to exist.

3. If the operating system is preinstalled then it is no different from other notebook manufacturers like Dell, who have issued a refund to one customer in the UK. If you are activating it then you are preempting that I will accept the license and that is unfair and possibly illegal. If by activating the operating system it's status becomes used then you have sold me a second hand product!, and deliberately changing the status from new to used in order to ensure the customer cannot obtain a refund is possibly illegal. It can be considered an act of sabotage designed to lock users in, or at least obtain money by false pretences as nowhere on your website is it mentioned that the OS is classed as 'used' before the user even unpacks the computer. Even on standard installs activation occurs AFTER ACCEPTANCE OF THE EULA. As far as users are concerned OEM installs do not need to be activated therefore this sounds like an excuse because if I was to reinstall the operating system I would need to re-agree to the EULA but not activate it (as I have had to do on several Dell machines!). Finally, you state that the OS cannot be installed on another computer which is a lie because we are not dealing with a physical product here but, as Microsoft like to make very clear, a LICENSE. As long as this license is not accepted it has never been used therefore it CAN be transferred to another computer. If it can't then that is illegal. But of course, you have preempted this by accepting the EULA for me by activating the product, despite me having to accept the EULA on first boot.

4. I have been invoiced once, yes, but upon first boot I am forced to agree to a restrictive license on the operating system. This license asks me to agree to conditions of use SET BY MICROSOFT, NOT ACER. Because of this it becomes a separate product as there is no license agreement to use the computer itself, only the operating system. Since this license agreement exists and I have the choice of accepting or rejecting it then the Windows OS install remains a separate product. Remember, the computer may be a bundle but only one part of it has an additional license agreement I have to accept to use it, which is not your license agreement but Microsofts. This makes it a separate product as the EULA states that if I reject the license I cannot use Windows XP. Nowhere does it state that I cannot use the computer!

5. This was reiterated a second time by Acer staff. As already mentioned, we are dealing with a license and not a product. Since the license was never accepted it can easily be re-used or sold to another end user. If you have put the status of the OS as 'used' you are breaking my consumer rights to deal with that product as I may wish.

I fail to see what the problem is except that you are desperately trying to force Windows onto people. You make good notebook/desktop computers but fail to offer the user a choice with regards to the operating system installed. I could understand this if the year was 2003 but Microsoft are not the only manufacturers of viable operating systems now (even only offering Windows in 2003 shouldn't have happened). You are not the only manufacturer who do not offer alternatives to Windows and this situation is being investigated by the EU after several complaints, of which I may have to join.

I also fail to see why you seem desperate to alienate users of GNU/Linux distributions. Since Dell have already set a precedent by reimbursing a user surely you do not want GNU/Linux users to consider Dell computers over Acer computers? The majority of users are not knowledgeable so having Windows installed and having no rights will be ok for them but there are other users, knowledgeable and influential users, who use systems other than Windows and, even though these knowledgeable users may only make a small percentage of your overall sales you seem to be willing to alienate them and their future custom. This is indeed strange, especially since the knowledgeable are the first people the normal user turn to when they want recommendations and it seems that you are willing to throw away custom whereas Dell do not.

I will reiterate that I do not have a problem with the hardware, only the operating system. The operating system must be considered separate from the bundle because it is the only part of the bundle where I have to agree to an external license. Not only can I agree to it but I can also disagree. If I disagree then the EULA clearly states that I am entitled to a refund subject to manufacturers return policies but I am unable to find your return policies anywhere on your UK website.

So, it all boils down to do I get a refund or should I consider looking into this further. I think I have a case since:

1. You do not offer choice of operating systems for the product, or even a 'naked' computer. If I approached you and asked for the same computer I purchased but without Windows you would either say no or charge me more.

2. You assume I will agree to the EULA by activating the OS therefore you have trampled on my rights to reject activation or the OS.

3. By activating the OS you change it's status to used, BEFORE the customer receives it.

4. There is no notification on your website that activation of the products occur before shipping, that activation puts the class of the operating system as 'Used' and that because the product is activated you cannot obtain a refund. In fact the user is unaware that any activation has taken place!

5. Nowhere on your website is there any policy on refunds.

6. You state the OS cannot be reinstalled on another computer despite the fact that we are dealing with licenses, not physical products, and licenses can be transferred.

7. You state that the computer & operating system is one complete bundle but I still have to agree to a restrictive license agreement, terms set by Microsoft and not Acer (UK). If I break this license I am in trouble with Microsoft, not Acer.

8. If I disagree with the EULA then I have wasted money, because according to you the operating system has been 'used' via your activation of the product and you refuse to refund Windows because it is 'used'.

9. You state that the OS is an integral part of the system yet I am unable to use the OS to it's full capacity unless I purchase further items from you. Integral but incomplete?

10. You state that the OS is an integral part of the system yet I have been able to remove the OS, install a rival OS and have never had a problem.

11. A media disc is not supplied. Relying on users to create a media backup is not sensible because most USERS WOULD NOT THINK THIS NECESSARY.

I await your reply before considering my options.

Spoiler:

Dear Acer Customer,

Following your conversation with the Acer Call Centre, please find the enclosed document that we require to be completed / signed and returned together with :

• Your Acer Computer
• Microsoft O.S. CD’s only (exclude Norton Antivirus & software CD’s)
• Copy of the sales invoice for your Acer product
(refund claim cannot be accepted if in excess of 30 days from
the date of purchase of the Acer product).

These items will need to be returned to your local Acer Repair Centre (as indicated by the Call Centre agent) in order to allow us to remove the Windows Operating System and refund you for it. This will take no more than 3 working days from the date we receive all the above.

Please be aware that shipment of the product to our repair centre and back to you after the removal of windows will be at your own expense.

Please note that following the refund, any remaining software support on your Acer warranty will be void.

Acer will refund you in accordance with the value of the Operating System shipped with your Acer product.
XP Home = 30 Euro (approximately £20)
XP Professional = 60 Euro (approximately £40)

Should you have any questions, please do not hesitate to contact Acer and we will be glad to assist.


Kind Regards,



Acer Technical Support




Please complete the following and return a copy with your computer.


First Name: ……………………………………………………
Surname: ……………………………………………………
House Name/Number:…………………………………………………
Street: ……………………………………………………
City: ……………………………………………………
Post/Zip Code: ……………………………………………………
Country: ……………………………………………………
Acer Product Serial Number:………………………………………….


I declare that as part of my conversation with my local Acer Call Centre (Case ID Number ………..), I wish to be reimbursed in accordance with the relevant Microsoft EULA for the Windows Operating System supplied with my Acer product.

I formally authorize Acer to remove from the Hard Disk Drive the Operating System (The Hard Disk Drive will be given back to me empty); remove from the machine the Microsoft COA (Certificate Of Authenticity) label; keep the Operating System CD’s.

By signing this agreement, and in full accordance with the directions given to me by Acer, I agree to the following:

• I will ship or carry the product (at my own expense) to the Acer Repair Centre closest to me to allow Acer to remove the Windows Operating System.

• I will ship together with the Acer product :

o Microsoft O.S. CD’s only (exclude Norton Antivirus & software CD’s).
o Copy of the sales invoice or receipt for the Acer product.
o This form filled in and signed.

• I shall not request any further software support from Acer.

I accept that until the items requested above are returned, I am not eligible for any refund.

I agree that this request may be given to Microsoft and agree to hold Acer harmless from any claims by third parties in the event that I have provided any false information in this request.
Reply With Quote

Spoiler:

My reply:

Thank you for the returns slip. I am not sure what to make of this because I see it as either a delaying tactic or final admittance that Acer will refund the cost of Windows after all despite, what I have been told previously.

To tell you the truth I am getting sick of this. This returns slip raises even more problems and I am seeing it as a deliberate attempt at either a) stalling the refund, or b) sabotaging the refund.

Let's go over what you want and my problems with this. In the returns slip you state:

please find the enclosed document that we require to be completed / signed and returned together with :

Your Acer computer

Microsoft O.S. CD’s only (exclude Norton Antivirus & software CD’s)

Copy of the sales invoice for your Acer product

(refund claim cannot be accepted if in excess of 30 days from the date of purchase of the Acer product).


This is a good start except for several things:
1. You want me to return the Microsoft OS CDs. One of the original problems that I stated in my second email was that there 'WAS NO MEDIA DISC'. I was told that the user was expected to create a recovery disc and install from that. Now to obtain the refund I have to return the discs that simply do not exist!!
2. I have already sent you a copy of the invoice. Because of delaying tactics I have now exceeded the 30 days.
3. You require the machine to remove windows. I have mentioned from the second email again and again and again that I have already removed Windows and replaced it with Linux. What do you expect me to do, not agree to the EULA and then wait for possibly six months while I fight with you to get a refund? I cannot use the computer until I get the refund just in case you want to remove Windows?

The machine cannot be returned as it is my current development machine and currently carries some of my important current code I am working on.

You also state:

Acer will refund you in accordance with the value of the Operating System shipped with your Acer product.

XP Home = 30 Euro (approximately £20)

XP Professional = 60 Euro (approximately £40)


The problem with this: Which version of XP do I have? XP Media Centre Edition! So what is that, £80?

I'm sorry but this is not good enough. First you do not issue refunds because the OS has been activated and now you do but I have to return the product for the removal of the OS when I clearly stated several times that I had already removed it. Secondly, you request my invoice which is duly emailed and then miraculously, when you now do refund the cost of Windows, a refund cannot be excepted if the claim is in excess of 30 days of the purchase. It is highly suspicious as I now surpass that.

As stated, I am assuming that this whole process is a deliberate act to force me to accept the cost of the Windows whether I want it or not, or to ensure that I am further inconvenienced all because you failed to offer any kind of choice to customers. Because of this I am left with no choice but to ensure this is taken further therefore over the Christmas holidays I will be:
1. Contacting and forwarding all information to Trading Standards. I will attempt to get them to look further into this issue and also try to persuade them to look further into the Acer/Microsoft licensing agreement to see if there are deliberate clauses in their stopping you from offering other operating systems.
2. I will be contacting the various IT news sites to see if they are interested in picking up the story. I have deliberately failed to do this for professional reasons but some of the information that Acer has given as to why you cannot refund for Windows is interesting and also possibly illegal. I think everybody should know about the excuses you give.
3. I will be making all of the information available to Linux Forums, news sites and most of all the users, to ensure that they are full aware of Acers attitude towards them as you will do your best to make money for Microsoft whilst basically ripping them off.
4. Contacting the European Commission Secretary General & various other departments to put my story in with the other complaints about the illegal bundling of computers and Microsoft Windows, and the deliberate attempts of the computer manufacturers to block refunding the cost of Windows.

This will be done over the Christmas holidays. I will also be taking legal advice.

Spoiler:

Their email:
----------------

Regarding your enquiry,

In response to customers wishing to be refunded for the windows installation Acer have very recently put together the procedure you have been supplied and are now happy to do this for you. The machine was not supplied with recovery cds, if you had created them these are the disks we would need returned with the computer.

Media Centre Edition will be treated as XP Professional and will be refunded 60 Euro. Should we book the machine in for a windows removal?

Spoiler:

and my reply:
-----------------

It is great that you have introduced a new policy where you will at least consider the removal and refund of/for Windows. This is a great step forward for a computer company and I hope that other companies follow suit. If this policy is for real then it will be considered a big step.

Unfortunately this still leaves me with a problem. You are asking whether I should book my computer in for Windows removal despite me insisting several times that Windows has already been removed. It is now c.40 days since I have received the notebook, at least 21/28 days since I have requested a refund for Windows, and in all this time you cannot expect me to still have Windows on it, in a disused state since the EULA has not been agreed upon. I have clearly stated that Windows has already been replaced with Linux so your new policy causes me a problem. Also, because of the work on the notebook I am unable to send it into you even for checking. Please advise how this situation can be handled. As far as I am concerned the license either needs to be retired or Microsoft need to ensure that the license never appears against my notebook's serial number again (otherwise it will result in legal action against me), and Microsoft are/should be in a position to enforce this as is amply demonstrated in their Windows Genuine Advantage campaign (even if it is ill thought out and seriously flawed IMHO).

I will withold contacting Trading Standards etc until I hear from you. My work breaks up today so I will reconsider my options on 2nd January, when I return.

Finally, if this policy is to be truly considered as a serious effort of appreciation towards the Linux/Unix community then I hope that the mention of the possibility of a refund, together with any rules/restrictions to obtaining this refund, will be available on the Acer website in an easily accessed place, ie. the FAQs page springs to mind. Hiding this sort of information shows ill intentions and can be a breeding ground for future distrust.

Το thread όλο φαίνεται αρκετά ενδιαφέρον, χωρίς πολλά κουραστικά posts, θα το κοιτάξω για στοιχεία. Επίσης έχει κάποια στοιχεία για παράπονα που έχουν ήδη γίνει στην ΕΕ, όπως αυτό.

Προσωπικά πιστεύω ότι θα φας μια σχετική ταλαιπωρία, αλλά αξίζει μόνο και μόνο για την δήλωση. Ας είναι και 1 ευρώ η επιστροφή. Όπως λέει κι ένας στο forum της fedora στον scruffy:

Give them Hell!

Edit: Αξίζει ακόμα να σημειωθεί ότι με την αγορά του laptop, δεν αγοράζεις τα windows όπως θα αγόραζες κάποιο σκληρό, γιατί όπως λέει καθαρά και στο ίδιο το Eula της MS, αγοράζεις μια "Άδεια χρήσης" με τους όρους της οποίας καθαρά διαφωνείς, όπως απαντάει πολύ σωστά ο Scruffy.

[Gordito]

@pelasgian αυτό θα έπρεπε να το ψάξεις πριν παρείς το φορητό,

Συμφωνω 100%.

Ολα τα αλλα, προσωπικα, τα θεωρω κακοβουλα.

[KILLERman]

Η αληθεια ειναι οτι η καταναλωτικη μας κουλτουρα εχει εντονη αναγκες απο ηρωες σαν εσενα να ανοιγουν δρομο, οποτε εαν εχεις τον χρονο pelasgian προχώρα με τους πιο θερμους και φιλικους χαιρετισμους.

(Οχι μονο των fan του opensource αλλα και των ακαδημαικών/ερευνητών/φοιτητών οι οποίοι εχουν την δυνατοτητα να προμηθευτουν με αλλα χαμηλα κοστη ή και δωρεαν λογισμικό της Microsoft εταιριας -η οποία δε τα δίνει ακριβώς δωρεάν ή σε εξευτελιστικές τιμές για την ψυχή της μητέρας της, αλλά αντίθετα εχει εξασφαλισει τα εσοδα απο αντιστοιχες συμφωνιες- )


Η επιχειρηματολογια του παλικαριου @ fedora forum ήταν απλά απολαυστικά συγκροτημένη και εύστοχη

Τα κυριότερα σημεία που έμεινα

• (Το πιο σημαντικό που καταλήγει και ο c4lex) 'Αγοράζεις άδεια χρήσης με ΕΠΙΛΟΓΗ να αποδεχτείς ή όχι με πολυ ξεκαθαρες προοπτικες και στις 2 περιπτωσεις (doomness or refund αντιστοιχα )

• Διαχωρισμος αναγκαιοτητας του λογισμικου για την βιωσιμοτητα του υλισμικου

• Μονοπολιακή θέση (σημείωση προς nikchris: προσωπικα μάλλον κακόβουλη είναι η απουσία από την αγορά της δυνατότητας επιλογής )

Τα παραπάνω αρκούν για να πείσεις νοήμονες ανθρώπους, παραταύτα αντί για σιγουριά θα σου προτείνα να οπλιστείς με κουράγιο

Από πολύ καιρό πολύ ουσιαστικό topic

[Gordito]

• Μονοπολιακή θέση (σημείωση προς nikchris: προσωπικα μάλλον κακόβουλη είναι η απουσία από την αγορά της δυνατότητας επιλογής )

Off Topic

Συγνωμη για τη μορφη του μηνυματος που ακολουθει αλλα ειναι πολυ αργα

Το θεμα ειναι οντως πολυ ωραιο.
Aς δωσω ομως και ενα αντιλογο στον δημιουργο:

Αγορασα ενα DVD Rom και ειχε bundled software. Μπορω να παω να ζητησω τα λεφτα αυτα πισω;
Αγορασα ενα ΧΒΟΧ 360 και ειχε 2 παιχνιδια μεσα. Να παω να ζητησω τα 150€ πισω;

Υπαρχουν λαπτοπ που ερχονται με Linux ή υπαρχει και το build to order.
Υπαρχουν κολπα να σε υποχρεωσει η καθε εταιρια να βαλεις οτι γουσταρει, πχ βγαζει drivers μονο για Vista. Θα της πει κανενας τιποτα;
"Αγοραστε το laptop μου με ΔΩΡΟ τα Vista". Θα του πεις εσυ μετα τι;

Και εξαλλου, ή θα βαλεις Linux σε ενα λαπτοπ ή θα πρεπει να αγορασεις αδεια χρησης για XP ή Vista.

Θα γινει ντορος για το 1% που θα βαλει linux; (Και ολοι ξερουμε οτι το 1% ειναι πολυ αισιοδοξο)

[c4lex]

Off Topic

Συγνωμη για τη μορφη του μηνυματος που ακολουθει αλλα ειναι πολυ αργα

Το θεμα ειναι οντως πολυ ωραιο.
Aς δωσω ομως και ενα αντιλογο στον δημιουργο:

Αγορασα ενα DVD Rom και ειχε bundled software. Μπορω να παω να ζητησω τα λεφτα αυτα πισω;
Αγορασα ενα ΧΒΟΧ 360 και ειχε 2 παιχνιδια μεσα. Να παω να ζητησω τα 150€ πισω;

Υπαρχουν λαπτοπ που ερχονται με Linux ή υπαρχει και το build to order.
Υπαρχουν κολπα να σε υποχρεωσει η καθε εταιρια να βαλεις οτι γουσταρει, πχ βγαζει drivers μονο για Vista. Θα της πει κανενας τιποτα;
"Αγοραστε το laptop μου με ΔΩΡΟ τα Vista". Θα του πεις εσυ μετα τι;

Και εξαλλου, ή θα βαλεις Linux σε ενα λαπτοπ ή θα πρεπει να αγορασεις αδεια χρησης για XP ή Vista.

Θα γινει ντορος για το 1% που θα βαλει linux; (Και ολοι ξερουμε οτι το 1% ειναι πολυ αισιοδοξο)

Um... Νo.

Δεν είναι υποχρεωμένος κανείς να επωμιστεί το κόστος επιπλέον λογισμικού που δεν θα χρησιμοποιήσει, αν αυτό πουλείται πακέτο. Η Acer έχει πληρώσει την microsoft κάποια λεφτά για τις OEM άδειες, το κόστος των οποίων περνάει στο πελάτη. Άρα δεν μπορεί να ισχυριστεί ότι είναι "δώρο". Θα σου πω μια άλλη περίπτωση: Τι θα γινόταν αν ο pelasgian είχε ήδη retail πακέτο Vista που πλήρωσε, ή ήταν φοιτητής και το λειτουργικό το είχε δωρεάν. Το βλέπεις λογικό να πληρώνει δυο φορές για τα Vista? Πόσο μάλλον όταν δεν συμφωνεί με τους όρους της χρήσης των windows all together?

Για τα DVD Rom, αν δεν κάνω λάθος, είναι πανεύκολο να βρεις το ίδιο μοντέλο χωρίς το επιπλέον λογισμικό. Και πάλι, δεν θα ήταν κακόβουλο να ζητήσεις λεφτά πίσω από το κόστος που ο ίδιος πλήρωσες αν το μοντέλο χωρίς το λογισμικό υπολείπονταν σε κάτι. Για το XBOX, δεν γνωρίζω αν και με τι EULA έρχονται τα παιχνίδια, αλλά γιατί να μην μπορείς? Απλά εκεί το πιο πιθανό είναι να μπορούνε να σου πούνε ότι όντος τα παιχνίδια "διατίθονται δωρέαν" καθώς ίσως προέρχονται από την ίδια την MS, οπότε επιστροφή χρημάτων δεν θα γίνεται.

Δεν είναι κακόβουλη η προάσπιση των δικαιωμάτων του καταναλωτή, κακόβουλες είναι οι τακτικές των εταιρειών.

[D_J_V]

Μήπως δε βλέπετε το αυτονόητο?
Οτι η Acer ή κάθε άλλη εταιρεία έχει υπογράψει με την MS συμφωνία να περνάει το λειτουργικό της με το ζόρι στα μηχανήματα και ΠΙΘΑΝΟΤΑΤ ΚΑΤΩ ΑΠΟ ΤΟ ΤΡΑΠΕΖΙ να πριμοδοτεί το λάπτοπ ???
Επίσης ΑΝ πάθει κάποια βλάβη το λάπτοπ και πάει στο τεχνικό τμήμα ΣΙΓΟΥΡΑ θα υπάρξει ΜΠΕΡΔΕΜΑ γιατί ΑΜΦΙΒΑΛΛΩ αν ΕΝΑΣ θα ξέρει Linux OS...
Το σωστό είναι να αγοράζουμε κάτι κατα παραγγελία ΑΝ γίνεται, αλλιώς το αποδεχόμαστε γιατί ΔΥΣΤΥΧΩΣ τα καρτέλ είναι πολλά, θα σπάσουν τα νεύρα μας απο τις μυστικές συμφωνίες και θα βλαστημήσουμε τα λεφτά που θα διεκδικήσουμε!!

[pelasgian]

Συμφωνω 100%.

Ολα τα αλλα, προσωπικα, τα θεωρω κακοβουλα.

Δεν θα ξεκινήσω flame στη βάση του τι θεωρείς. Απλά μπορείς να πας να τα θεωρήσεις λίγο παρακάτω; Η πολύ θεωρία πρωί πρωί με χτυπάει στα νεύρα.

........Auto merged post: pelasgian πρόσθεσε 12 λεπτά και 17 δευτερόλεπτα αργότερα ........

Μήπως δε βλέπετε το αυτονόητο?
Οτι η Acer ή κάθε άλλη εταιρεία έχει υπογράψει με την MS συμφωνία να περνάει το λειτουργικό της με το ζόρι στα μηχανήματα και ΠΙΘΑΝΟΤΑΤ ΚΑΤΩ ΑΠΟ ΤΟ ΤΡΑΠΕΖΙ να πριμοδοτεί το λάπτοπ ???
Επίσης ΑΝ πάθει κάποια βλάβη το λάπτοπ και πάει στο τεχνικό τμήμα ΣΙΓΟΥΡΑ θα υπάρξει ΜΠΕΡΔΕΜΑ γιατί ΑΜΦΙΒΑΛΛΩ αν ΕΝΑΣ θα ξέρει Linux OS...
Το σωστό είναι να αγοράζουμε κάτι κατα παραγγελία ΑΝ γίνεται, αλλιώς το αποδεχόμαστε γιατί ΔΥΣΤΥΧΩΣ τα καρτέλ είναι πολλά, θα σπάσουν τα νεύρα μας απο τις μυστικές συμφωνίες και θα βλαστημήσουμε τα λεφτά που θα διεκδικήσουμε!!

Δεν το κάνω για τα λεφτά. Το κάνω για τη δήλωση ανυπακοής στο μονοπώλιο και την σύνταξή μου με την ΕΕ στην διερεύνηση των μονοπωλιακών πρακτικών. Αυτή τη στιγμή διερευνώ μία συγκεκριμένη εταιρεία.

Αν συμπεριφερθεί όπως πρέπει, θα την διαφημίσω. Αν δεν συμπεριφερθεί όπως πρέπει, θα δημοσιεύσω όλες τις επιστολές και θα την πάω δικαστικά.

Εσείς καταλάβατε ότι είναι για λεφτά; Το cheque δεν θα το εξαργυρώσω, το θέλω για το κάδρο Είναι το τρόπαιο!

[alerasta]

Οσο η ms - για δική της προστασία - σου επιτρέπει να απορρίψεις την άδεια χρήσης, μπορείς να το κάνεις. Είναι κουτό να πληρώσεις για κάτι που δε χρησιμοποιείς και πολύ καλά κάνεις που ζητάς επιστροφή χρημάτων. Δεν ξέρω αν θα βρεις το δίκιο σου (δυστυχώς τα πράγματα δεν κινούνται σύμφωνα με το ποιος έχει δίκιο αλλά σύμφωνα με το ποιος έχει τη δύναμη να επιβάλλει τη θέση του). Θεωρώ όμως πως αν το κυνηγήσεις και επικοινωνήσεις με την μαμά εταιρία θα δεχτούν την επιστροφή. Κυρίως αν η μαμά εταιρία είναι αυτή που καταλαβαίνω από το post σου.

Αγορασα ενα DVD Rom και ειχε bundled software. Μπορω να παω να ζητησω τα λεφτα αυτα πισω;
Αγορασα ενα ΧΒΟΧ 360 και ειχε 2 παιχνιδια μεσα. Να παω να ζητησω τα 150€ πισω;

Απλά, αγοράζεις dvd-rom σε bulk έκδοση ή xbox χωρίς παιχνίδια... Εχεις επιλογή όμως. Και υπάρχει επιπλέον η υπόθεση μονοπώλιο. Το να σου "χαρίσουν" το GTA4 μαζί με το xbox δεν είναι μονοπωλιακή πρακτική (δεν παίζει το 90% των gamers GTA4). Το να σου "χαρίσουν" windows είναι μονοπωλιακή πρακτική...