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  1. #1966
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    Παράθεση Αρχικό μήνυμα από yiapap Εμφάνιση μηνυμάτων
    Δώκαμεν, δώκαμεν!
    Άσε πια για πολυυυυυύ παλαιότερα! Με την ακόμη περισσότερο υπεύθυνη, ανεξάρτητη, υπερήφανη εξωτερική πολιτική μας!!!
    Βρε θα έβγαινε η ΕΡΕ να τα βάλει με τον Τίτο; Ή ή όποια τοποθετημένη και εξαρτημένη μετεμφυλιακή κυβέρνηση; Άσε τώρα... μην εκτροχιαστούμε τελείως!
    Ακριβώς αυτό λέω! Αφού μια ζωή προσκυνημένοι είναι οι κυβερνώντες μας. Κάποιος κάτι πήγε να κάνει κάτι και έφεραν τους ΠαπαδοπουλοΠατακούς. Άντε μωρέ Γιάννη. Αντί να κοιτάμε το συμφέρον μας, όπως κάνουν όλοι οι Βαλκάνιοι, ξεπουλιόμαστε μια ζωή. Ξεχνάει κανείς την αλησμόνητη φράση:"Σε 10 χρόνια κανείς δε θα θυμάται αυτό το ζήτημα!"
    Όταν ενώνουμε τις δυνάμεις μας, μπορούμε να πετύχουμε το ακατόρθωτο - Παναγιώτης Γιαννάκης

    Never say never, because limits, like fears, are often just an illusion -
    Michael Jordan


  2. #1967
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    Στη μόνη πόλη που γράφεται με 2 'σ' και προφέρεται με 2 'λ'
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    Παράθεση Αρχικό μήνυμα από megahead13 Εμφάνιση μηνυμάτων
    Ξεχνάει κανείς την αλησμόνητη φράση:"Σε 10 χρόνια κανείς δε θα θυμάται αυτό το ζήτημα!"
    Κι όμως φίλε μου...
    Βγαίνει ο παναθλιότατος εδώ και χρόνια και σε κάθε ευκαιρία κοκορεύεται για το πως ο ίδιος ήταν κοντά σε συμφωνία πριν του ρίξει ο Σαμαράς την κυβέρνηση!
    Όχι απλά ξεχνάμε... Ούτε καν θυμόμστε!
    Και μετά ζητάμε από τους Σκοπιανούς να θυμούνται... τι έγινε 2500 χρόνια πριν!
    Όσο πιο βαθιά βάζουν το χέρι οι εταίροι στις τσέπες μας, τόσο πιο κοντά φθάνουν στα @@ μας

  3. #1968
    Εγγραφή
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    Παράθεση Αρχικό μήνυμα από yiapap Εμφάνιση μηνυμάτων
    Στοιχηματάκι από τώρα ότι οι ακραίοι τύπου VMRO θα έχουν μεγαλύτερο ποσοστό;
    Ε;ε;ε;ε;ε;ε;
    Αν υπάρχουν αλλαγές θα είναι προς το χειρότερο
    Ίδωμεν.
    Εύχομαι να πέσεις έξω σε αυτό.
    Τελευταία επεξεργασία από το μέλος YiannisM : 03-04-08 στις 20:00.

  4. #1969
    Εγγραφή
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    Παράθεση Αρχικό μήνυμα από yiapap Εμφάνιση μηνυμάτων
    Κι όμως φίλε μου...
    Βγαίνει ο παναθλιότατος εδώ και χρόνια και σε κάθε ευκαιρία κοκορεύεται για το πως ο ίδιος ήταν κοντά σε συμφωνία πριν του ρίξει ο Σαμαράς την κυβέρνηση!
    Όχι απλά ξεχνάμε... Ούτε καν θυμόμστε!
    Και μετά ζητάμε από τους Σκοπιανούς να θυμούνται... τι έγινε 2500 χρόνια πριν!
    Καλά δεν έχεις και πολύ άδικο. Ότι είμαστε αλλαντάλλες, είμαστε...
    Όταν ενώνουμε τις δυνάμεις μας, μπορούμε να πετύχουμε το ακατόρθωτο - Παναγιώτης Γιαννάκης

    Never say never, because limits, like fears, are often just an illusion -
    Michael Jordan


  5. #1970
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    Παράθεση Αρχικό μήνυμα από yiapap Εμφάνιση μηνυμάτων
    Κι όμως φίλε μου...
    Βγαίνει ο παναθλιότατος εδώ και χρόνια και σε κάθε ευκαιρία κοκορεύεται για το πως ο ίδιος ήταν κοντά σε συμφωνία πριν του ρίξει ο Σαμαράς την κυβέρνηση!
    Όχι απλά ξεχνάμε... Ούτε καν θυμόμστε!
    Και μετά ζητάμε από τους Σκοπιανούς να θυμούνται... τι έγινε 2500 χρόνια πριν!
    Αυτοί που ήταν τότε 6 χρονών και σήμερα ψηφίζουν, θυμούνται τον Σαμαρά, τον Κοντογιανόπουλο, τον Λάλας, την Ιταλτσιμέντι και το νερό που πήγε απο 1.000 δρχ το τρίμηνο στις 50.000 δρχ το τρίμηνο;

  6. #1971
    Το avatar του μέλους conpap
    conpap Guest
    Kαλές οι συζητεις μας αλλά:
    Οι Σκοπιανοί σε ΝΑΤΟ και ΕΚ ΔΕΝ πρόκειται να μπούν αν δεν προσδιορίσουν το όνομα της χώρας τους γεωγραφικά εφ όσον θέλουν να αναφέρουν την λέξη "Μακεδονία" ή ας ονομάσουν την χώρα τους όπως αλλοιώς θέλουν χωρίς την λέξη "Μακεδονία". Τέλος!
    Απλά ΔΕΝ το επιτρέπουμε επειδή έχουμε τον τρόπο να μην το επιτρέψουμε και μια χαρά κάνουμε. Δηλαδή κάνουμε ότι κάνει οποιαδήποτε άλλη χώρα του κόσμου που έχει διαφορές με μία άλλη Εξασκεί την δύναμη τα μέσα τις διασυνδέσεις και όποιον άλλο τρόπο μπορεί για να επιβάλλει το δικό της. Και οι Σκοπιανοί το ίδιο ακριβώς θα έκαναν εναντίον μας και θα επέβαλλαν την δική τους θέση ΑΝ είχαν τον τρόπο να το πετύχουν. Και μην μου πεί κάποιος ότι θα έδειχναν κατανόηση στις ελληνικές θέσεις και θα συμβιβάζονταν ή θα διαπραγματεύονταν αν μπορούσαν να επιβάλλουν τις θέσεις τους. Γραμμένους κανονικά θα μας είχαν εκεί που δεν πιάνει μελάνι. Μόνο που σε αυτό το παιχνίδι εμείς είμαστε οι δυνατοί σε σχέση με τα Σκόπια και εμείς ορίζουμε πώς θα παίζεται το παιχνίδι Οι Σκοπιανοί απλούστατα έπαιξαν και έχασαν. Όταν παίζεις με δυνατότερους δεν πουλάς τσαμπουκά απλά προσπαθείς να πετύχεις ότι καλύτερο για σένα με έξυπνες στρατηγικές και συμβιβασμούς. Αυτός είναι ο κόσμος των διεθνών σχέσεων και της πολιτικής. Τα περί σωστού ή λάθους, δίκαιου ή άδικου σχετικά με τον τρόπο που χειριστήκαμε το θέμα κρίνονται εκ του αποτελέσματος. Πετύχαμε τον σκοπό μας άρα κάναμε το σωστό.
    Όσο για τους ίδιους όπως και για μένα και για τον καθένα όπου γής ας ονομάζεται όπως θέλει και όπως αισθάνεται περήφανος και ευχαριστημένος γι αυτό. Μακεδόνας, Έλληνας, Τούρκος, Σλαύος, Σπαρτιάτης, απόγονος του Μεγαλέξαντρου, του Αχιλλέα της Πηνελόπης και ούτε καθ' εξής. Καθόλου δεν μου πέφτει λόγος για το πώς θέλει να ονομάζεται ο κάθε Σκοπιανός μεμονωμένο ή όλοι οι Σκοπιανοί παρέα. Το όνομα της χώρας τους πάντως αποκλείεται να είναι "Μακεδονία" σκέτο. Θα έχει οπωσδήποτε και παρέα..
    Τελευταία επεξεργασία από το μέλος conpap : 03-04-08 στις 20:20.

  7. #1972
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    Παράθεση Αρχικό μήνυμα από Spanos Εμφάνιση μηνυμάτων
    Αυτοί που ήταν τότε 6 χρονών και σήμερα ψηφίζουν, θυμούνται τον Σαμαρά, τον Κοντογιανόπουλο, τον Λάλας, την Ιταλτσιμέντι και το νερό που πήγε απο 1.000 δρχ το τρίμηνο στις 50.000 δρχ το τρίμηνο;
    Που τη θυμήθηκες ρε αθεόφοβε την Ιταλτσιμέντι!!!


    Παράθεση Αρχικό μήνυμα από conpap Εμφάνιση μηνυμάτων
    Kαλές οι συζητεις μας αλλά:
    Οι Σκοπιανοί σε ΝΑΤΟ και ΕΚ ΔΕΝ πρόκειται να μπούν αν δεν προσδιορίσουν το όνομα της χώρας τους γεωγραφικά εφ όσον θέλουν να αναφέρουν την λέξη "Μακεδονία" ή ας ονομάσουν την χώρα τους όπως αλλοιώς θέλουν χωρίς την λέξη "Μακεδονία". Τέλος!
    Απλά ΔΕΝ το επιτρέπουμε επειδή έχουμε τον τρόπο να μην το επιτρέψουμε και μια χαρά κάνουμε. Δηλαδή κάνουμε ότι κάνει οποιαδήποτε άλλη χώρα του κόσμου που έχει διαφορές με μία άλλη Εξασκεί την δύναμη τα μέσα τις διασυνδέσεις και όποιον άλλο τρόπο μπορεί για να επιβάλλει το δικό της. Και οι Σκοπιανοί το ίδιο ακριβώς θα έκαναν εναντίον μας και θα επέβαλλαν την δική τους θέση ΑΝ είχαν τον τρόπο να το πετύχουν. Και μην μου πεί κάποιος ότι θα έδειχναν κατανόηση στις ελληνικές θέσεις και θα συμβιβάζονταν ή θα διαπραγματεύονταν αν μπορούσαν να επιβάλλουν τις θέσεις τους. Γραμμένους κανονικά θα μας είχαν εκεί που δεν πιάνει μελάνι.
    Άντε μπράβο φίλε μου! Μια ζωή εμείς κάνουμε υποχωρήσεις (είτε εξ αιτίας της βλακεία μας, είτε επειδή κατεβάζουμε παντελόνια χωρίς αντιρρήσεις)! Ε, δεν πειράζει, ας κάνουν μια φορά πίσω και οι άλλοι!
    Όταν ενώνουμε τις δυνάμεις μας, μπορούμε να πετύχουμε το ακατόρθωτο - Παναγιώτης Γιαννάκης

    Never say never, because limits, like fears, are often just an illusion -
    Michael Jordan


  8. #1973
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    Interim Accord between the Hellenic Republic and the Republic of Macedonia

    (Ενδιάμεση Συμφωνία ... )

    Spoiler:


    INTERIM ACCORD

    Minister Karolos Papoulias, representing the Party of the First Part (the "Party of the First Part") and Minister Stevo Crvenkovsky, representing the Party of the Second Part (the "Party of the Second Part"), hereby DECLARE AND AGREE as follows:

    Recalling the principle of the inviolability of frontiers and the territorial integrity of States incorporated in the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, signed in Helsinki,

    Bearing in mind the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations and in particular, those referring to the obligation of States to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State,

    Guided by the spirit and principles of democracy and fundamental freedoms and respect for human rights and dignity, in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, as well as the Helsinki Final Act, the Charter of Paris for a new Europe and pertinent acts of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe,

    Considering their mutual interest in the maintenance of international peace and security, especially in their region,

    Desiring to confirm the existing frontier between them as an enduring international border,

    Recalling their obligation not to intervene, on any pretext or in any form, in the internal affairs of the other,

    Desiring to develop their mutual relations and to lay firm foundations for a climate of peaceful relations and understanding,

    Realizing that economic cooperation is an important element for the development of mutual relations on a stable and firm basis, as well as desiring to develop and promote future cooperation.

    Desiring to reach certain interim agreements that will provide a basis for negotiating a permanent Accord,

    Have agreed as follows:

    A. FRIENDLY RELATIONS AND CONFIDENCE-BUILDING MEASURES

    Article 1

    1. Upon entry into force of this Interim Accord, the Party of the First Part recognizes the Party of the Second Part as an independent sovereign state, under the provisional designation set forth in a letter of the Party of the First Part of the date of this Interim Accord, and the Parties shall at an early date establish diplomatic relations at an agreed level with the ultimate goal of relations at ambassadorial level.

    2. The Party of the First Part shall as promptly as possible establish a liaison office in Skopje, the capital of the Party of the Second Part, and the Party of the Second Part shall as promptly as possible establish a liaison office in Athens, the capital of the Party of the First Part.

    Article 2

    The Parties hereby confirm their common existing frontier as an enduring and inviolable international border.

    Article 3

    Each Party undertakes to respect the sovereignty, the territorial integrity and the political independence of the other Party. Neither Party shall support the action of a third party directed against the sovereignty, the territorial integrity or the political independence of the other Party.

    Article 4

    The Parties shall refrain, in accordance with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations, from the threat or use of force, including the threat or use of force designed to violate their existing frontier, and they agree that neither of them will assert or support claims to any part of the territory of the other Party or claims for a change of their existing frontier.

    Article 5

    1. The Parties agree to continue negotiations under the auspices of the Secretary-General of the United Nations pursuant to Security Council resolution 845 (1993) with a view to reaching agreement on the difference described in that resolution and in Security Council resolution 817 (1993).

    2.. Recognizing the difference between them with respect to the name of the Party of the Second Part, each Party reserves all of its rights consistent with the specific obligations undertaken in this Interim Accord. The Parties shall cooperate with a view to facilitating their mutual relations notwithstanding their respective positions as to the name of the Party of the Second Part. In this context, the Parties shall take practical measures, including dealing with the matter of documents, to carry out normal trade and commerce between them in a manner consistent with their respective positions in regard to the name of the Party to the Second Part. The Parties shall take practical measures so that the difference about the name of the Party to the Second Part will not obstruct or interfere with normal trade and commerce between the Party of the Second Part and third parties.

    Article 6

    1. The Party of the Second Part hereby solemnly declares that nothing in its Constitution, and in particular in the Preamble thereto or in Article 3 of the Constitution, can or should be interpreted as constituting or will ever constitute the basis of any claim by the Party of the Second Part to any territory not within its existing borders.

    2. The Party of the Second Part hereby solemnly declares that nothing in its Constitution, and in particular in Article 49 as amended, can or should be interpreted as constituting or will ever constitute the basis for the Party of the Second Part to interfere in the internal affairs of another State in order to protect the status and rights of any persons in other States who are not citizens of the Party to the Second Part.

    3. The Party of the Second Part furthermore solemnly declares that the interpretations given in paragraph 1 and 2 of this Article will not be superseded by any other interpretation of its Constitution.

    Article 7

    1. Each Party shall promptly take effective measures to prohibit hostile activities or propaganda by State-controlled agencies and to discourage acts by private entities likely to incite violence, hatred or hostility against each other.

    2. Upon entry into force of this Interim Accord, the Party of the Second Part shall cease to use in any way the symbol in all its forms displayed on its national flag prior to such entry into force.

    3. If either Party believes one or more symbols constituting part of its historic or cultural patrimony is being used by the other Party, it shall bring such alleged use to the attention of the other Party, and the other Party shall take appropriate corrective action or indicate why it does not consider it necessary to do so.

    Article 8

    1. The Parties shall refrain from imposing any impediment to the movement of people or goods between their territories or through the territory of either Party to the territory of the other. Both Parties shall cooperate to facilitate such movements in accordance with international law and custom.

    2. The Parties agree that the European Union and the United States may be requested to use their good offices with respect to developing practical measures referred to in paragraph 2 of Article 5 so as to assist the Parties in the implementation of Article 8.

    B. HUMAN AND CULTURAL RIGHTS

    Article 9

    1. In the conduct of their affairs the Parties shall be guided by the spirit and principles of democracy, fundamental freedoms, respect for human rights and dignity, and the rule of law, in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, the International Convention on the Elimination of all Forms of Racial Discrimination, the Convention on the Rights of the Child, the Helsinki Final Act, the document of the Copenhagen Meeting of the Conference on the Human Dimension of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe and the Charter of Paris for a New Europe.

    2. No provision of the instruments listed in paragraph 1 above shall be interpreted to give any right to take any action contrary to the aims and principles of the Charter of the United Nations, or of the Helsinki Final Act, including the principle of the territorial integrity of States.

    Article 10

    Convinced that the development of human relations is necessary for improving understanding and good-neighbourliness of their two peoples, the Parties shall encourage contacts at all appropriate levels and shall not discourage meetings between their citizens in accordance with international law and custom.

    C. INTERNATIONAL, MULTILATERAL AND REGIONAL INSTITUTIONS

    Article 11

    1. Upon entry into force of this Interim Accord, The Party of the First Part agrees not to object to the application by or the membership of the Party of the Second Part in international, multilateral and regional organizations and institutions of which the Party of the First Part is a member; however, the Party of the First Part reserves the right to object to any membership referred to above if and to the extent of the Party of the Second Part is to be referred to in such organization or institution differently than in paragraph 2 of the United Nations Security Council resolution 817 (1993).

    2. The Parties agree that the ongoing economic development of the Party of the Second Part should be supported through international cooperation, as far as possible by a close relationship of the Party of the Second Part with the European Economic Area and the European Union.

    D. TREATY RELATIONS

    Article 12

    1. Upon entry into force of this Interim Accord, the Parties shall in their relations be directed by the provisions of the following bilateral agreements that had been concluded between the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the Party of the First Part on 18 June 1959:

    1. The convention concerning mutual legal relations,
    2. The agreement concerning the reciprocal recognition and the enforcement of judicial decisions, and
    3. The agreement concerning hydro-economic questions.

    The Parties shall promptly consult with a view to entering into new agreements substantially similar to those referred to above.

    2. The Parties shall consult with each other in order to identify other agreements concluded between the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the Party of the First Part that will be deemed suitable for application in their mutual relations.

    3. The Parties may conclude additional bilateral agreements in areas of mutual interest.

    Article 13

    Having regard to the fact that the Party of the Second Part is a land-locked State, the Parties shall be guided by the applicable provisions of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea as far as practicable both in practice and when concluding agreements referred to in Article 12.

    Article 14

    1. The Parties shall encourage the development of friendly and good-neighborly relations between them and shall reinforce their economic cooperation in all sectors, including that of water resources management. In particular they shall promote, on a reciprocal basis, road, rail, maritime and air transport and communication links, using the best available technologies, and facilitate the transit of their goods between them and through their territories and ports. The Parties shall observe international rules and regulations with respect to transit, telecommunications, signs and codes.

    2. To this end the Parties agree to enter forthwith into negotiations aimed at promptly implementing agreements of cooperation in the aforementioned areas, taking into account the obligations of the Party of the First Part deriving from its membership in the European Union and from other international instruments. Such agreements shall relate to visas, work permits, "green card" insurance, airspace transit and economic cooperation.

    E. ECONOMIC, COMMERCIAL, ENVIRONMENTAL AND LEGAL RELATIONS

    Article 15

    1. The Parties shall strengthen their economic relations in all fields.

    2. The Parties shall in particular support development and cooperation in the field of capital investments, as well as industrial cooperation between enterprises. Special attention shall be paid to cooperation between small and medium-size companies and enterprises.

    Article 16

    1. The Parties shall develop and improve scientific and technical cooperation as well as cooperation in the field of education.

    2. The Parties shall intensify their exchanges of information and of scientific and technical documentation, and shall strive to improve mutual access to scientific and research institutions, archives, libraries and similar institutions.

    3. The Parties shall support initiatives by scientific institutions and by individuals aimed at improving cooperation in the sciences.

    Article 17

    1. The Parties shall take great care to avoid dangers to the environment and to preserve natural living conditions in the lakes and rivers shared by the two Parties.

    2. The Parties shall cooperate in eliminating all forms of pollution in border areas.

    3. The Parties shall strive to develop and harmonize strategies and programs for regional and international cooperation for protecting the environment.

    Article 18

    The Parties shall cooperate in alleviating the consequences of disasters.

    Article 19

    1. The Parties shall cooperate in improving and promoting business and tourist travel.

    2. Consistent with the obligations of the Party of the First Part arising from its membership in the European Union and from relevant instruments of the Union, the Parties shall make joint efforts to improve and accelerate customs and border formalities, including simplification in the issuance of visas to each other's citizens, taking into account Article 5, paragraph 2, of this Interim Accord.

    3. The Parties shall endeavor to improve and modernize existing border crossings as required by the flow of traffic, and construct new border crossings as necessary.

    Article 20

    The Parties shall cooperate in the fight against organized crime, terrorism, economic crimes, narcotics crimes, illegal trade in cultural property, offenses against civil air transport and counterfeiting.

    F. FINAL CLAUSES

    Article 21

    1. The Parties shall settle any disputes exclusively by peaceful means in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

    2. Any difference or dispute that arises between the Parties concerning the interpretation or implementation of this Interim Accord may be submitted by either of them to the International Court of Justice, except for the differences referred to in Article 5, paragraph 1.

    Article 22

    This Interim Accord is not directed against any other State or entity and it does not infringe on the rights and duties resulting from bilateral and multilateral agreements already in force that the Parties have concluded with other States or international organizations.

    Article 23

    1. This Interim Accord shall enter into force and become effective on the thirtieth day following the date on which it is signed by the representatives of the Parties as set forth below.

    2. This Interim Accord shall remain in force until superseded by a definitive agreement, provided that after seven years either Party may withdraw from this Interim Accord by a written notice, which shall take effect 12 months after its delivery to the other Party.

    IN WITNESS WHEREOF the Parties have, through their authorized representatives, signed three copies of this Interim Accord in the English language which shall be registered with the Secretariat of the United Nations. Within two months of the date of signature, the United Nations is to prepare, in consultation with the Parties, translations into the language of the Party of the First Part and the language of the Party of the Second Part, which shall constitute part of the registration of this Accord.

    ______________________________ _________________________________

    Representative of the Representative of the
    Party of the First Part Party of the Second Part

    WITNESSED, in accordance with Resolution 845 (1993) of the Security Council, by:

    ______________________________________

    Cyrus Vance

    Special Envoy of the Secretary-General
    of the United Nations

    DONE at New York on the 13th day of September 1995


  9. #1974
    Εγγραφή
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    Ωραίος conpap.

    Ήταν μια επιτυχία για την Ελλάδα γιατί επιτέλους οι γλύφτες πολιτικοί μας, σήκωσαν ανάστημα στα Αμερικανάκια. Μου έκανε εντύπωση πάντως που χώρες-κλειδιά μας υποστήριξαν. Δεν το περίμενα. Ευτυχώς, μερικές πρεσβείες δουλεύουν ακόμα. Επίσης, μ' άρεσε η στάση του Παπανδρέου που ζήτησε να συναντηθεί με το Καραμανλή λίγο πριν το βέτο. Μεγάλη υπευθυνότητα. Μπράβο του!!! Ευτυχώς που όλοι αντέδρασαν με βάση το εθνικό συμφέρον.
    Ελπίζω τώρα τα Σκόπια να βάλουν μυαλό. Δεν ξέρω κατα πόσο μια λύση με γεωγραφικό προσδιορισμό που θα περιέχει τον όρο Μακεδονία θα δώσει λύση οριστική. Πολύ φοβάμαι ότι εφόσον υπάρχει το Μακεδονία σταδιακά θ'αρχίσουν να το συνδεουν ιστορικά (αυτό το έχουν κάνει ήδη) , και αργότερα να λιγουρεύονται και το έδαφος. Δυστυχώς, όμως το παιχνίδι στην ουσία το έχουμε χάσει γτ απ' ότι φαίνεται το καλύτερο που μπορούμε να πετύχουμε είναι σύνθετη ονομασία.
    Η Ελλάδα άργησε να αντιδράσει. Τόσα χρόνια αναγνώριζαν τα Σκόπια σαν Μακεδονία και εμείς κοιμόμασταν. Επίσης, έχουν δίκιο οι Σκοπιανοί που λένε ότι δεν τηρήσαμε την ενδιάμεση συμφωνία. Πράγματι έτσι είναι. Νομίζω ότι το τελευταίο δείχνει τι εστί πολιτική: ένα μάτσο ανούσιες κουβέντες που στην ουσία είναι ψέματα και όταν φέρεις αποδείξεις ότι έχεις δίκιο κανείς δε θα πάρει το μέρος σου.

    Άραγε, τώρα που μπήκε το βέτο ο κ. Καρατζαφέρης θα διαλύσει το κόμμα του;

  10. #1975
    Εγγραφή
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    Παράθεση Αρχικό μήνυμα από freshmeat Εμφάνιση μηνυμάτων
    Interim Accord between the Hellenic Republic and the Republic of Macedonia

    (Ενδιάμεση Συμφωνία ... )

    Spoiler:


    INTERIM ACCORD

    Minister Karolos Papoulias, representing the Party of the First Part (the "Party of the First Part") and Minister Stevo Crvenkovsky, representing the Party of the Second Part (the "Party of the Second Part"), hereby DECLARE AND AGREE as follows:

    Recalling the principle of the inviolability of frontiers and the territorial integrity of States incorporated in the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, signed in Helsinki,

    Bearing in mind the provisions of the Charter of the United Nations and in particular, those referring to the obligation of States to refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any State,

    Guided by the spirit and principles of democracy and fundamental freedoms and respect for human rights and dignity, in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, as well as the Helsinki Final Act, the Charter of Paris for a new Europe and pertinent acts of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe,

    Considering their mutual interest in the maintenance of international peace and security, especially in their region,

    Desiring to confirm the existing frontier between them as an enduring international border,

    Recalling their obligation not to intervene, on any pretext or in any form, in the internal affairs of the other,

    Desiring to develop their mutual relations and to lay firm foundations for a climate of peaceful relations and understanding,

    Realizing that economic cooperation is an important element for the development of mutual relations on a stable and firm basis, as well as desiring to develop and promote future cooperation.

    Desiring to reach certain interim agreements that will provide a basis for negotiating a permanent Accord,

    Have agreed as follows:

    A. FRIENDLY RELATIONS AND CONFIDENCE-BUILDING MEASURES

    Article 1

    1. Upon entry into force of this Interim Accord, the Party of the First Part recognizes the Party of the Second Part as an independent sovereign state, under the provisional designation set forth in a letter of the Party of the First Part of the date of this Interim Accord, and the Parties shall at an early date establish diplomatic relations at an agreed level with the ultimate goal of relations at ambassadorial level.

    2. The Party of the First Part shall as promptly as possible establish a liaison office in Skopje, the capital of the Party of the Second Part, and the Party of the Second Part shall as promptly as possible establish a liaison office in Athens, the capital of the Party of the First Part.

    Article 2

    The Parties hereby confirm their common existing frontier as an enduring and inviolable international border.

    Article 3

    Each Party undertakes to respect the sovereignty, the territorial integrity and the political independence of the other Party. Neither Party shall support the action of a third party directed against the sovereignty, the territorial integrity or the political independence of the other Party.

    Article 4

    The Parties shall refrain, in accordance with the purposes and principles of the Charter of the United Nations, from the threat or use of force, including the threat or use of force designed to violate their existing frontier, and they agree that neither of them will assert or support claims to any part of the territory of the other Party or claims for a change of their existing frontier.

    Article 5

    1. The Parties agree to continue negotiations under the auspices of the Secretary-General of the United Nations pursuant to Security Council resolution 845 (1993) with a view to reaching agreement on the difference described in that resolution and in Security Council resolution 817 (1993).

    2.. Recognizing the difference between them with respect to the name of the Party of the Second Part, each Party reserves all of its rights consistent with the specific obligations undertaken in this Interim Accord. The Parties shall cooperate with a view to facilitating their mutual relations notwithstanding their respective positions as to the name of the Party of the Second Part. In this context, the Parties shall take practical measures, including dealing with the matter of documents, to carry out normal trade and commerce between them in a manner consistent with their respective positions in regard to the name of the Party to the Second Part. The Parties shall take practical measures so that the difference about the name of the Party to the Second Part will not obstruct or interfere with normal trade and commerce between the Party of the Second Part and third parties.

    Article 6

    1. The Party of the Second Part hereby solemnly declares that nothing in its Constitution, and in particular in the Preamble thereto or in Article 3 of the Constitution, can or should be interpreted as constituting or will ever constitute the basis of any claim by the Party of the Second Part to any territory not within its existing borders.

    2. The Party of the Second Part hereby solemnly declares that nothing in its Constitution, and in particular in Article 49 as amended, can or should be interpreted as constituting or will ever constitute the basis for the Party of the Second Part to interfere in the internal affairs of another State in order to protect the status and rights of any persons in other States who are not citizens of the Party to the Second Part.

    3. The Party of the Second Part furthermore solemnly declares that the interpretations given in paragraph 1 and 2 of this Article will not be superseded by any other interpretation of its Constitution.

    Article 7

    1. Each Party shall promptly take effective measures to prohibit hostile activities or propaganda by State-controlled agencies and to discourage acts by private entities likely to incite violence, hatred or hostility against each other.

    2. Upon entry into force of this Interim Accord, the Party of the Second Part shall cease to use in any way the symbol in all its forms displayed on its national flag prior to such entry into force.

    3. If either Party believes one or more symbols constituting part of its historic or cultural patrimony is being used by the other Party, it shall bring such alleged use to the attention of the other Party, and the other Party shall take appropriate corrective action or indicate why it does not consider it necessary to do so.

    Article 8

    1. The Parties shall refrain from imposing any impediment to the movement of people or goods between their territories or through the territory of either Party to the territory of the other. Both Parties shall cooperate to facilitate such movements in accordance with international law and custom.

    2. The Parties agree that the European Union and the United States may be requested to use their good offices with respect to developing practical measures referred to in paragraph 2 of Article 5 so as to assist the Parties in the implementation of Article 8.

    B. HUMAN AND CULTURAL RIGHTS

    Article 9

    1. In the conduct of their affairs the Parties shall be guided by the spirit and principles of democracy, fundamental freedoms, respect for human rights and dignity, and the rule of law, in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms, the International Convention on the Elimination of all Forms of Racial Discrimination, the Convention on the Rights of the Child, the Helsinki Final Act, the document of the Copenhagen Meeting of the Conference on the Human Dimension of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe and the Charter of Paris for a New Europe.

    2. No provision of the instruments listed in paragraph 1 above shall be interpreted to give any right to take any action contrary to the aims and principles of the Charter of the United Nations, or of the Helsinki Final Act, including the principle of the territorial integrity of States.

    Article 10

    Convinced that the development of human relations is necessary for improving understanding and good-neighbourliness of their two peoples, the Parties shall encourage contacts at all appropriate levels and shall not discourage meetings between their citizens in accordance with international law and custom.

    C. INTERNATIONAL, MULTILATERAL AND REGIONAL INSTITUTIONS

    Article 11

    1. Upon entry into force of this Interim Accord, The Party of the First Part agrees not to object to the application by or the membership of the Party of the Second Part in international, multilateral and regional organizations and institutions of which the Party of the First Part is a member; however, the Party of the First Part reserves the right to object to any membership referred to above if and to the extent of the Party of the Second Part is to be referred to in such organization or institution differently than in paragraph 2 of the United Nations Security Council resolution 817 (1993).

    2. The Parties agree that the ongoing economic development of the Party of the Second Part should be supported through international cooperation, as far as possible by a close relationship of the Party of the Second Part with the European Economic Area and the European Union.

    D. TREATY RELATIONS

    Article 12

    1. Upon entry into force of this Interim Accord, the Parties shall in their relations be directed by the provisions of the following bilateral agreements that had been concluded between the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the Party of the First Part on 18 June 1959:

    1. The convention concerning mutual legal relations,
    2. The agreement concerning the reciprocal recognition and the enforcement of judicial decisions, and
    3. The agreement concerning hydro-economic questions.

    The Parties shall promptly consult with a view to entering into new agreements substantially similar to those referred to above.

    2. The Parties shall consult with each other in order to identify other agreements concluded between the former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and the Party of the First Part that will be deemed suitable for application in their mutual relations.

    3. The Parties may conclude additional bilateral agreements in areas of mutual interest.

    Article 13

    Having regard to the fact that the Party of the Second Part is a land-locked State, the Parties shall be guided by the applicable provisions of the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea as far as practicable both in practice and when concluding agreements referred to in Article 12.

    Article 14

    1. The Parties shall encourage the development of friendly and good-neighborly relations between them and shall reinforce their economic cooperation in all sectors, including that of water resources management. In particular they shall promote, on a reciprocal basis, road, rail, maritime and air transport and communication links, using the best available technologies, and facilitate the transit of their goods between them and through their territories and ports. The Parties shall observe international rules and regulations with respect to transit, telecommunications, signs and codes.

    2. To this end the Parties agree to enter forthwith into negotiations aimed at promptly implementing agreements of cooperation in the aforementioned areas, taking into account the obligations of the Party of the First Part deriving from its membership in the European Union and from other international instruments. Such agreements shall relate to visas, work permits, "green card" insurance, airspace transit and economic cooperation.

    E. ECONOMIC, COMMERCIAL, ENVIRONMENTAL AND LEGAL RELATIONS

    Article 15

    1. The Parties shall strengthen their economic relations in all fields.

    2. The Parties shall in particular support development and cooperation in the field of capital investments, as well as industrial cooperation between enterprises. Special attention shall be paid to cooperation between small and medium-size companies and enterprises.

    Article 16

    1. The Parties shall develop and improve scientific and technical cooperation as well as cooperation in the field of education.

    2. The Parties shall intensify their exchanges of information and of scientific and technical documentation, and shall strive to improve mutual access to scientific and research institutions, archives, libraries and similar institutions.

    3. The Parties shall support initiatives by scientific institutions and by individuals aimed at improving cooperation in the sciences.

    Article 17

    1. The Parties shall take great care to avoid dangers to the environment and to preserve natural living conditions in the lakes and rivers shared by the two Parties.

    2. The Parties shall cooperate in eliminating all forms of pollution in border areas.

    3. The Parties shall strive to develop and harmonize strategies and programs for regional and international cooperation for protecting the environment.

    Article 18

    The Parties shall cooperate in alleviating the consequences of disasters.

    Article 19

    1. The Parties shall cooperate in improving and promoting business and tourist travel.

    2. Consistent with the obligations of the Party of the First Part arising from its membership in the European Union and from relevant instruments of the Union, the Parties shall make joint efforts to improve and accelerate customs and border formalities, including simplification in the issuance of visas to each other's citizens, taking into account Article 5, paragraph 2, of this Interim Accord.

    3. The Parties shall endeavor to improve and modernize existing border crossings as required by the flow of traffic, and construct new border crossings as necessary.

    Article 20

    The Parties shall cooperate in the fight against organized crime, terrorism, economic crimes, narcotics crimes, illegal trade in cultural property, offenses against civil air transport and counterfeiting.

    F. FINAL CLAUSES

    Article 21

    1. The Parties shall settle any disputes exclusively by peaceful means in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

    2. Any difference or dispute that arises between the Parties concerning the interpretation or implementation of this Interim Accord may be submitted by either of them to the International Court of Justice, except for the differences referred to in Article 5, paragraph 1.

    Article 22

    This Interim Accord is not directed against any other State or entity and it does not infringe on the rights and duties resulting from bilateral and multilateral agreements already in force that the Parties have concluded with other States or international organizations.

    Article 23

    1. This Interim Accord shall enter into force and become effective on the thirtieth day following the date on which it is signed by the representatives of the Parties as set forth below.

    2. This Interim Accord shall remain in force until superseded by a definitive agreement, provided that after seven years either Party may withdraw from this Interim Accord by a written notice, which shall take effect 12 months after its delivery to the other Party.

    IN WITNESS WHEREOF the Parties have, through their authorized representatives, signed three copies of this Interim Accord in the English language which shall be registered with the Secretariat of the United Nations. Within two months of the date of signature, the United Nations is to prepare, in consultation with the Parties, translations into the language of the Party of the First Part and the language of the Party of the Second Part, which shall constitute part of the registration of this Accord.

    ______________________________ _________________________________

    Representative of the Representative of the
    Party of the First Part Party of the Second Part

    WITNESSED, in accordance with Resolution 845 (1993) of the Security Council, by:

    ______________________________________

    Cyrus Vance

    Special Envoy of the Secretary-General
    of the United Nations

    DONE at New York on the 13th day of September 1995


    Article 11

    1. Upon entry into force of this Interim Accord, The Party of the First Part agrees not to object to the application by or the membership of the Party of the Second Part in international, multilateral and regional organizations and institutions of which the Party of the First Part is a member; however, the Party of the First Part reserves the right to object to any membership referred to above if and to the extent of the Party of the Second Part is to be referred to in such organization or institution differently than in paragraph 2 of the United Nations Security Council resolution 817 (1993).
    και

    Article 5

    1. The Parties agree to continue negotiations under the auspices of the Secretary-General of the United Nations pursuant to Security Council resolution 845 (1993) with a view to reaching agreement on the difference described in that resolution and in Security Council resolution 817 (1993).
    .

  11. #1976
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    1. Each Party shall promptly take effective measures to prohibit hostile activities or propaganda by State-controlled agencies and to discourage acts by private entities likely to incite violence, hatred or hostility against each other.
    Εδώ είναι η ουσία.

    Και τα τραγελαφικά
    3. If either Party believes one or more symbols constituting part of its historic or cultural patrimony is being used by the other Party, it shall bring such alleged use to the attention of the other Party, and the other Party shall take appropriate corrective action or indicate why it does not consider it necessary to do so.
    Όχι μόνο σύμβολα, αλλά λέξεις, αντικείμενα, ιστορία...

    Δεν άντεξα να διαβάσω παρακάτω.
    Από το «Ο πελάτης έχει πάντα δίκιο», στο «Η εταιρία έχει πάντα δίκιο».
    Επιλογή linux διανομής.
    Αγγλικά <- Απορίες για το Slack; Διάβασε -> Ελληνικά. Οδηγίες εγκατάστασης από imitheos
    Θησαυρός πληροφοριών ΑΝΕΞΑΡΤΗΤΑ διανομής GNU/Linux.

  12. #1977
    Εγγραφή
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    Αναφορικά με το κρίσιμο α.11, να μου επιτρέψετε να σας υπενθυμίσω το πολύ γνωστό περιστατικό της 25-9-07:

    Spoiler:


    Ως γνωστόν, η Ελλάδα τηρώντας τους όρους της ενδιάμεσης συφωνίας, αποδέχτηκε ανεπιφυλακτως την είσοδο της ΦΥΡΟΜ στο ΟΗΕ με την προσωρινή της ονομασία αυτή.

    Κατά τη Συνεδρίαση της Γ.Σ. του ΟΗΕ της 25-9-07 έλαβε χώρα το εξής περιστατικό:
    ο προεδρεύων της 62ης Γενικής Συνέλευσης, Σερτζάν Κερίμ, Σκοπιανός στην καταγωγή, καλώντας στο βήμα τον πρόεδρο της ΠΓΔΜ, προσφώνησε τον Μπράνκο Τσερβένκοφσκι ως πρόεδρο της «Δημοκρατίας της Μακεδονίας», παρά την έντονη επισήμανση του μονίμου αντιπροσώπου της Ελλάδος.

    Ο πρέσβης Ιωάννης Μουρίκης, μόνιμος αντιπρόσωπος της Ελλάδας στον ΟΗΕ, προχώρησε στην επισήμανση ότι σύμφωνα με τα ψηφίσματα του Συμβουλίου Ασφαλείας και της Γενικής Συνέλευσης, η ΠΓΔΜ είναι μέλος του ΟΗΕ ως ΠΓΔΜ.

    Ο κ. Κερίμ ισχυρίστηκε ότι θα πρέπει να σέβεται την αξιοπρέπεια όλων των χωρών, συμπεριλαμβανομένης και της δικής του.

    Ο Μπράνκο Τσερβένκοφσκι ευχαρίστησε τον κ. Κερίμ και κλείνοντας την ομιλία του είπε: «Με η χωρίς επισήμανση το όνομα της χώρας μου είναι και θα είναι Δημοκρατία της Μακεδονίας».
    Τελευταία επεξεργασία από το μέλος freshmeat : 03-04-08 στις 21:00.

  13. #1978
    Εγγραφή
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    Παράθεση Αρχικό μήνυμα από megahead13 Εμφάνιση μηνυμάτων
    Ακριβώς αυτό λέω! Αφού μια ζωή προσκυνημένοι είναι οι κυβερνώντες μας. Κάποιος κάτι πήγε να κάνει κάτι και έφεραν τους ΠαπαδοπουλοΠατακούς. Άντε μωρέ Γιάννη. Αντί να κοιτάμε το συμφέρον μας, όπως κάνουν όλοι οι Βαλκάνιοι, ξεπουλιόμαστε μια ζωή. Ξεχνάει κανείς την αλησμόνητη φράση:"Σε 10 χρόνια κανείς δε θα θυμάται αυτό το ζήτημα!"
    Επειδή συνεχώς ρωτάω στο thread αυτό και κανείς δε έδωσε συγκροτημένη απάντηση:

    1) Πώς ή πότε προσκύνησαν οι πολιτικοί μας στο Μακεδονικό ζήτημα?
    (αναφέρομαι μετά το '90, ώστε να μην μπαίνουμε σε γενικότερη αναψηλάφηση του 20ού αιώνα)

    2) Τι θα μπορούσαν να κάνουν και δεν έκαναν τα τελευταία 17 χρόνια?

    3) Ήταν ή όχι τα συλλαλητήρια που ώθησαν του πολιτικούς μας σε πλειοδοσία εθνικοφροσύνης στην ανερμάτιστη αναμεταξύ τους συμφωνία περί μη αποδοχής σύνθετου ονόματος?
    (@megahead13: ρίξε κι ένα βλέφαρο στα προηγούμενα posts που μνημονεύω αν απαντήσεις)

  14. #1979
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    Παράθεση Αρχικό μήνυμα από iphi1986 Εμφάνιση μηνυμάτων
    Ωραίος conpap.

    Ήταν μια επιτυχία για την Ελλάδα γιατί επιτέλους οι γλύφτες πολιτικοί μας, σήκωσαν ανάστημα στα Αμερικανάκια. Μου έκανε εντύπωση πάντως που χώρες-κλειδιά μας υποστήριξαν. Δεν το περίμενα. Ευτυχώς, μερικές πρεσβείες δουλεύουν ακόμα. Επίσης, μ' άρεσε η στάση του Παπανδρέου που ζήτησε να συναντηθεί με το Καραμανλή λίγο πριν το βέτο. Μεγάλη υπευθυνότητα. Μπράβο του!!! Ευτυχώς που όλοι αντέδρασαν με βάση το εθνικό συμφέρον.
    Ελπίζω τώρα τα Σκόπια να βάλουν μυαλό. Δεν ξέρω κατα πόσο μια λύση με γεωγραφικό προσδιορισμό που θα περιέχει τον όρο Μακεδονία θα δώσει λύση οριστική. Πολύ φοβάμαι ότι εφόσον υπάρχει το Μακεδονία σταδιακά θ'αρχίσουν να το συνδεουν ιστορικά (αυτό το έχουν κάνει ήδη) , και αργότερα να λιγουρεύονται και το έδαφος. Δυστυχώς, όμως το παιχνίδι στην ουσία το έχουμε χάσει γτ απ' ότι φαίνεται το καλύτερο που μπορούμε να πετύχουμε είναι σύνθετη ονομασία.
    Η Ελλάδα άργησε να αντιδράσει. Τόσα χρόνια αναγνώριζαν τα Σκόπια σαν Μακεδονία και εμείς κοιμόμασταν. Επίσης, έχουν δίκιο οι Σκοπιανοί που λένε ότι δεν τηρήσαμε την ενδιάμεση συμφωνία. Πράγματι έτσι είναι. Νομίζω ότι το τελευταίο δείχνει τι εστί πολιτική: ένα μάτσο ανούσιες κουβέντες που στην ουσία είναι ψέματα και όταν φέρεις αποδείξεις ότι έχεις δίκιο κανείς δε θα πάρει το μέρος σου.

    Άραγε, τώρα που μπήκε το βέτο ο κ. Καρατζαφέρης θα διαλύσει το κόμμα του;
    Νομίζω πως αν διαβάσεις την Ενδιάμεση Συμφωνία, εύκολα θα βρεις ποιος δεν την τήρησε...
    Τελευταία επεξεργασία από το μέλος freshmeat : 03-04-08 στις 21:21.

  15. #1980
    Εγγραφή
    28-11-2004
    Περιοχή
    Θεσσαλονικη
    Μηνύματα
    511
    Downloads
    5
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    0
    Ταχύτητα
    14000/1021
    ISP
    FORTHnet
    DSLAM
    Forthnet - ΤΟΥΜΠΑ
    Router
    Technicolor
    SNR / Attn
    6,2(dB) / 22(dB)
    Path Level
    Interleaved
    Παράθεση Αρχικό μήνυμα από iphi1986 Εμφάνιση μηνυμάτων

    Άραγε, τώρα που μπήκε το βέτο ο κ. Καρατζαφέρης θα διαλύσει το κόμμα του;
    Ο K. Kαρατζαφέρης ήταν σαφεσταστος καιρο τωρα:

    «Είναι εμφανές ότι η Ελλάδα έχει βάλει βέτο για το πρόθεμα. Το "Μακεδονία" το έχει αποδεχθεί από την στιγμή που απεδέχθη σύνθετη ονομασία.
    αρα λοιπόν, είναι θέμα αν το πρόθεμα, μας αρέσει ή όχι. Επιμένω ότι αυτό το βέτο δεν φτάνει
    .>>

    Ένα μεγάλο μπράβο από μένα στον Πρόεδρο του Λαός για την όλη του στάση στο θέμα χρονια τώρα, και μέσα στην ευρωβουλή, αλλα και στην ελληνική βουλή.
    Τελευταία επεξεργασία από το μέλος Goacore : 03-04-08 στις 21:09.
    ΜΑΡΑΝ ΑΘΑ

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